Alfa Romeo GTV with factory aluminium panels - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #31 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mygtveloce View Post
PS: Steve, please don't take this the wrong way. I'm just having some fun with it. I don't know one way or the other. But, I've been around 105.51 GTVs a LOT, and I've never seen or heard of any coming from the factory with aluminum body components. I don't think they exist. This, coming from 50 years of observation.... just saying
Have to agree.

Homologation was so you could purchase the parts*. They did not have to sell cars with these parts already installed (even though they already had in the form of the earlier GTAs anyway, so maybe they used this loop hole. Heck Enzo Ferrari was famous for finding homologation loop holes, until the FIA slapped him down with the 250 LM). So yeah I assume many GTAms were upgraded for the 1970 season, but no 1750 GTV road cars were ordered and assembled with these alloy doors, boot lids and bonnets. Could have been, but even then it would have likely been dealer installed, not Milano factory installed.

* example of homologation permitting purchase of said parts but Alfa never sold a production car with it is the GTAm cylinder head. Yes GTAm's were built with these heads but they never rolled out of the Alfa Romeo factory with them, they were bought via the Racing catalogue.
Pete

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
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post #32 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 04:35 PM
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I don’t know if this could be interpreted as elucidation but let us return to the initial post. The question was if there were 1750 GTV cars, factory delivered with lightened or changed parts. Well the answer is simple: No. The 1750 GTV version 105.51, produced from ’68-’70, was FIA homologated when already produced in 2476 examples, and due for its injection system selected by Autodelta (no need to produce 1000 cars for homologation purposes) for racing elaborations. Reasons were several: the car was based on already proven and successful 105.32 model with similar handling and developed dynamic behaviour, and engine was suitable for further improvement in its class (2000 cc). In the first instance the initial homologation (1 October 1969) the changes were just few (wheels of 7’’ and engine displacement of 2000cc), and only with second homologation (1 January 1970) it became known version of GT Am with visible changes in its exterior look also. The version tested in occasion of November race in Hockenheim, with 1750 (Schultze) was decidedly not lightened, nor it was the GT 2000 shown in Tour de Corse, where the 2000 cc narrow head engine was tested for the first time. In 1970, in occasion of Monza race, the car was presented in its lightened form with Peraluman doors and luggage space cover (from GTA), fiberglass bonnet and fiberglass fenders (front and rear) and Plexiglas windows (except windshield), but on its original steel chassis and rest of the body (roof included). The weight was reduced to 780 kg and engine with Lucas injection (instead of SPICA in original version) produced 235 CV. To obtain such elaboration, numerous parts were homologated, produced (but after homologation of the car), and included in tuning options catalogue (only in English, good observation) available on request from Autodelta (also Alfa Romeo factory, but parts were distributed by Autodelta exclusively). There was no factory delivery of completed of partially produced cars with optional parts already fixed. Elaboration was left to private execution or made at Autodelta at desired degree, but ‘in situ’, or sold as completely finished ‘racing’ version delivered as GT Am. The car in its competition form was extremely efficient, and to limit its superiority, under British pression, in FIA appendix J for 1971 it was reintroduced original 1750 weight that was 200 kg heavier, than actual racing version, and the car arrived at its new official weight of 980 kg. Even in that form, GT Am was highly competitive, but necessity to produce and use lightened parts was significantly limited. The use of lightened parts was contemplated only in function to compensate major weight of added parts (safety cage introduced as obligatory, DRC system, 120 litre fuel tank and so on…). That’s why the possibility of having this mixed (production-competition) coachwork is unlikely, beside impossibility to make similar order to factory. It is underlined here that completed final product and option parts were two separate fields. Existence of homologated parts was not connected in any way to production version and you were obliged to buy and fix yourself desired part if you wanted it. In theory, one could produce all alloy version of 1750, put 245 CV engine in it and with its 680 kg, (FIA rules allowed it) inscribe it in Group 6 to compete with Porsche 908, 33 Daytona or Matra 630. You can imagine results of similar car against this listed (remember ‘open’ competition and possibilities of Turismo group 2, 4, or even 5 cars vs Prototypes), and ibid, the reason for such (not cheap) experiment. Australian non-FIA fantasy produced, it is true, some experiments like V8 engine in 105 chassis, jet or steam propelled GTAs, but that doesn’t mean that it was also the general way of considering car elaboration for racing elsewhere.
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post #33 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 05:53 PM
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As I understand one of the main reasons to homologate 1750 GTAm was to move to Group 2 from Group 4 to avoid competition with Porsche 911. Basically 1600 GTA did not have enough space in the back to be homologated as 4 seats car.
1750 GTV (GTAm) in the beginning of 1970 got modified rear seats and was homologated as Group 2 car.
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post #34 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 06:12 PM
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The 1969 Tour de Corse cars were full alloy GTAjunior chassis not GT with the earlier flares and 8x14 wheels.

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Originally Posted by ARGTAReg View Post
The version tested in occasion of November race in Hockenheim, with 1750 (Schultze) was decidedly not lightened, nor it was the GT 2000 shown in Tour de Corse, where the 2000 cc narrow head engine was tested for the first time.
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post #35 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ARGTAReg View Post
The version tested in occasion of November race in Hockenheim, with 1750 (Schultze) was decidedly not lightened, nor it was the GT 2000 shown in Tour de Corse, where the 2000 cc narrow head engine was tested for the first time.
I do not know if it is true or not, but I read that in 1968 s/n 613997 got 1905cc engine with two hydraulic chargers, dry sump, testa stretta head and monosleeve block. It had 315-325 HP at 7800rpm. It also received multilink suspension from TZ2. The weight of the car - 730 kg, max speed 270 km/h

The source was here. The original text is gone but I have a copy
http://www.enzogiobbe.com/sportphoto4a.html

Quote:
I never got that SA2, but I did get to drive it at Autodelta's Balocco track.

Chiti told me the car weighed in at 730 kilos, and the engine output was between 315 and 325CV (depending on the compression ratio) @ 7800 rpm.

This GTAP/SA2 had a modified TZ independent rear suspension setup and the narrow head, mono sleeve dry sump motor. I seem to remember it had the guillotine injection intake, but I'm not sure of that fact.

It certainly was quite a car in both looks and engineering. Great handling, fantastic braking, and very, very quick, with no lag. I pegged it at 270 km/h.

It had the exact same plastica parts my GTAP has (doors, hood, deck, and Plexiglas windows all around), along with a most unique (for then) rear spoiler/deck that unfortunately, was non-operational on the day of my drive.

The plastica rear deck had two hydraulic cylinders attached to a metal frame molded into the deck that was supposed to raise the deck at speed (I have no idea how it was activated or engaged).

So in effect, it was an active aero wing system made to look like the stock GTA rear deck when at rest. Quite exotic and clever for its time.

That SA2 deck may have just been one of Chiti's many "gee whiz" designs that didn't actually work, but sure as hell really impressed everybody.

Carlo Chiti was quite the innovator and a real character as well. Had he let me purchase that car, it would still be around for race car enthusiasts to enjoy and marvel at. Yet another piece of Alfa racing history lost forever.

Update: I've since learned that this special "works project car" was chassis number 613997, and was a special one-off build by Alfa Romeo for Autodelta after the normal GTA production run was completed. It was built for FIA Gp 5.

The car was dismantled in 1969 and rebuilt as a NA 1.6L GTA/P. It was then used for the FIA Plastica parts Homologation as a "1970 Giulia GTA".

Supposedly, this car caught on fire at Autodelta in 1971. There is no further history attached to that chassis number from that point on that I know of.

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post #36 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 07:49 PM
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I will accept that variations in homologations may be treated differently to the original homologation.
The steps of homologation were the factory produce the 1000 quantity and then got homologation, this is a 'fact' and is backed up by Fusi's numbers.
31st July 1969 Alfa Factory claimed 1000 cars produced for FIA 1576 Group 2 Turismo.
Production figures 1750 GT Veloce as per Fusi, pages 843..
1967 qty 919
1968 qty 146
1969 qty 639 subtotal for 1967+ 68+ half 1969 = 919+146 + 320 = 1385 cars even more than 1000 cars the factory claimed!
You could use 1967 and 68 production figures and you had 1065 cars, still over 1000 cars.

This leaves
At the end of
1970 qty 518
1971 qty 1150
1972 qty 17
Total of 3389 cars
Back to the original document FIA 1576 Group 2
not a complete list of items
Variations 'V'
Date 1.1.70 2/1V : ZF steering box
Date 1.1.70 3/2V : Alloy doors and trunk, 100L fuel tank, brakes, motor, injection.
Date 1.4.70 5/3V : Plastic bumper bars
Date 1.10.70 6/4V : ?
Date 1.1.71 7/5V : Piston rods
Date 1.7.71 8/6V : Brake discs
Evolution 'E'
Date 1.1.70 1/1E : Wide bodied flairs
Date 1.4.70 4/2E : Tandem brakes

It's not clear if variation V or evolution E meant another 1000 cars or a total of 1000 cars with the features.

'ARGTAReg' Existence of homologated parts was not connected in any way to production version and you were obliged to buy and fix yourself desired part if you wanted it.
So what are you saying? If I wanted the seats as shown in the previous photo I have to what go and get them from Autodelta, I don't thinks so.

I am asking where are the documents you are using what do the words means 'variation' 'evolution' to get an idea of what happened.
I still think you could order a GTV 1750 with alloy doors and bootlid (and those nice seats!) from the factory, and drive out the show room floor.
With safety aspects of racing taking on more momentum in 1972, roll cages were required. The fibre glass doors were no longer allowed from 1.1.1972, by that time it did not matter for the GTV 1750 as it was over only 17 cars were made in 1972
Cheers Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 01-16-2019 at 08:03 PM.
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post #37 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 08:04 PM
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I still think you could order a GTV 1750 with alloy doors and bootlid (and those nice seats!) from the factory, and drive out the show room floor.
Cheers Steve
Yes I accept this but what would have happened is your dealer would have ordered a completely steel 1750 GTV, and 2 alloy doors, and a boot lid. He would have sent the brand new doors and boot lid down the road to his trusted car painter and got them painted to match your brand new car and then had one of mechanics remove the steel doors and boot lid, bolt on the alloy stuff and rung you up and said "your car is ready".

Alfa Romeo did not produce the car like this, other than the rear seat, which is what all 1750 GTV rear seats look like, i.e. it was not just a racing change but a change made to the 105 series with the 1750 model so there was slightly more leg room in the back. This change was not so people with legs could sit in the back but to move the 1750 GTV into a different racing class. I'm sure other manufacturers occasionally do things like this too, but it is part of the Alfa story, i.e. basically the GTA was being given a decisive beating by the 911 Porsche so lets make the current GTV a proper 4 seater so not in the same class. Cheaper than producing TZ2s in GTA quantities

So again the alloy parts were variations to the signed FIA homologation for the 1750 GTV, and we all agree that Alfa Romeo never ever produced a run of 1000, or even 10, or heck even a single 1 with these parts already attached as it left the Milano or Paris factory.
Pete
ps: I wonder what happened to all those steel doors and boot lids originally hanging on GTAm's that were removed ... probably sitting in the back of Autodelta's old workshop somewhere in perfect condition ...
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'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
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post #38 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 08:08 PM
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Steve,

please see appendix J, pages 29-31 and 67-68
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post #39 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 08:16 PM
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Pete
If GTA's are going down the production line at Arese, why are you telling me GTV's with alloy doors and boot lid were not also going down the production line?
Where were the alloy parts? At the factory so they can be installed. Where is the car painted correctly ? at the factory with the alloy parts all ready on it!
As I mentioned before the FIA homologation of 1750 GTAm group 2 is still valid. May be FIA can enlighten us.
Cheers Steve

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post #40 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 10:29 PM
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Hi Steve,
I think I'm aware of most of the special Alfas downunder, but I've NEVER heard of an Australian built alloy 1750 race car, please enlighten me.
Cheers,
Vin.
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post #41 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-17-2019, 03:18 AM
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Hi Steve,
I think I'm aware of most of the special Alfas downunder, but I've NEVER heard of an Australian built alloy 1750 race car, please enlighten me.
Cheers,
Vin.
Hi Vin,
That is great you are aware of most.
What I said was
'There was an alloy looking 1750 GTV here in Australia by using a GTA as a start point. Technically the Australian modified car could have been a group 5 or 6 GTV 1750 car.'
I could have phrased it a bit better.
There was an alloy looking 1750 GTV that was converted /made up by consuming / using a GTA as a start point, the alloy 1750 GTV looking car was then made to look like a wide bodied GTAm here in Australia, and such a car could have been a Group 5 or 6 car under FIA.
check it out https://primotipo.com/tag/brian-foley/
Regards Steve

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post #42 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-17-2019, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Alleggerita View Post
The 1969 Tour de Corse cars were full alloy GTAjunior chassis not GT with the earlier flares and 8x14 wheels.
Right! Sorry for bad formulated statement. I was referring to Hockenheim car about lightened parts.

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post #43 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-17-2019, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve105 View Post
Hi Vin,
That is great you are aware of most.
What I said was
'There was an alloy looking 1750 GTV here in Australia by using a GTA as a start point. Technically the Australian modified car could have been a group 5 or 6 GTV 1750 car.'
I could have phrased it a bit better.
There was an alloy looking 1750 GTV that was converted /made up by consuming / using a GTA as a start point, the alloy 1750 GTV looking car was then made to look like a wide bodied GTAm here in Australia, and such a car could have been a Group 5 or 6 car under FIA.
Regards Steve
Hi Steve,
The car you are referring to is the Foley Lightweight, GTA 752561. It never was presented or race-logged as a 1750 GTV in any way whatsoever. In looks it was updated to smooth nose in 1600Junior style, never 1750 in appearance. It also had fibreglass nose, front fenders, doors, boot-lid & rear fenders. It was also fitted with formula-car tubular suspension. It never ran a 1750 engine, but intially a 1900cc 16v then a few other variations.
To draw this car into any conjecture about alloy bodied 1750 GTVs is total fantasy.
I guess your argument that anyone in period COULD have built up just about anything from ordering spare parts is valid, but I think you are grasping at straws suggesting that some elusive 1750s could have been given alloy body parts on the production line. You never know though, perhaps somebody will find one lost in a barn somewhere for 50 years....
Cheers,
Vin.
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post #44 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-17-2019, 04:04 AM
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Only need a picture of a 1750 GTV/Am on the production line with the hole on the alloy doors as per GTA style door button, just before it goes into the paint dip bath.

Here is the link to the FIA historic database
https://historicdb.fia.com/cars/grid...alfa-romeo-204
Cheers Steve

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post #45 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-17-2019, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve105 View Post
Only need a picture of a 1750 GTV/Am on the production line with the hole on the alloy doors as per GTA style door button, just before it goes into the paint dip bath.

Geez Steve you are being optimistic! The few early 1750 GTAms with alloy doors would have had them fitted at the Autodelta workshop after the car was delivered there for conversion, as were any other lightweight panels & special parts.
I know you live in hope & bought that hand made alloy smooth nose panel from Malaysia a while back. I was standing in the workshop where your alloy roof skin was made last year admiring it, and I guess by now you've also bought the full set of other GTA repro panels you were inquiring & costing as well....
Just build your ultimate fantasy lightweight 1750 & enjoy it. You don't have to justify it to the world; unless you are looking for a suitable barn!
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