Alfa Romeo GTV with factory aluminium panels - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-15-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by PSk View Post
Yes the bonnet, doors and boot lid could easily have been ordered and replaced the steel parts that Alfa made the 1750 with. Just like lots of GTAm had those panels (bonnet, doors and boot lid) in fiberglass.
But I do not believe Alfa ever sold a 1750 to this specification.
Pete
Hi Pete,
You are missing the facts I am trying to point out.
1. You could order from Alfa any one of '1000' 1750 GTAm 'cars' at the dealership with alloy doors and boot lid already installed in 1970 from the factory, as per Homologation FIA 1576/3/2V, see the first photo.
2. In 1970 according to FIA rules you could also order a car with aluminum doors (possibly boot lid etc) If the factory made at least 100 cars available with this option in Group 2.(obviously Alfa factory made 1000 available!)
3. In Australia a private racer did make an all alloy 1750 GTV, which would have been under FIA a group 6 car.[FIA was not the governing body in 1970 in Australia]

Cheers Steve
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Last edited by Steve105; 01-15-2019 at 07:52 PM. Reason: corrected date
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post #17 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-15-2019, 01:51 PM
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Homologation doc's don't necessarily mean any were made ... or do they???

The GTAm's that raced had steel body shells (guards), surely the race teams would have bought alloy ones if legal for their race series, but they didn't ... did they?

But yes it appears based on the doc's that it was possible ... but GTAm race history pretty much proved nobody did (I think)
Pete
ps: wish the original owner of my 1750 ordered the alloy doors and boot lid. Would have saved me many hours of de-rusting!

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
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Last edited by PSk; 01-15-2019 at 01:55 PM.
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post #18 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-15-2019, 07:12 PM
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If you study the homologation documents, they the 'Alfa factory' had to have made the cars first.
So as to answer your first question. Yes the cars were typically made prior to homologation. FIA 1576/3/2V was an 'invariata', a variation to FIA 1576 making the aluminum doors and boot lid available from 1st Jan 1970 for a 1750 GTAm.

Your second question about alloy bodies being legal for GTAm in their race series.
Certainly race series existed, but so did the allowance for group 5 and 6 cars, see Angelini's race programs.
In 1969 the 1750 GTAm was homoligated in Groupo 2: Turismo (1000 samples) and the body was steel as you point out, the teams could not change it in 1969 to aluminum if they ran in Group 2. They had to wait until 1st Jan 1970 so they could change the doors and boot lid to aluminum.
If they ran in Group 5 or 6 they probably could change the body to aluminum as a private entrant, as to if there was any factory direct conversion to full alloy through Autodelta or Angelini is a good question.
It is well documented that in Australia a private racer did make an all alloy 1750 GTAm, which would have been under FIA a group 6 car.
In 1970 it could be considered FIA allowed a minimum 100 cars to have lightweight coach elements like alloy doors, ...( boot lid and bonnet as they are elements too). What about a lightweight coach element being the body!
I guess you need to get your head around how it all worked, looking at the dates on the documents.
FIA sets rules first, then Alfa factory makes cars to take advantage of new rules. Alfa factory then homologates cars, supplements existing homologations with extra additions (i.e. aluminum doors and boot lid etc ) under the umbrella of the FIA rules.
If there are other members that know more happy to be correct.
Cheers Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 01-16-2019 at 12:22 PM.
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post #19 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-15-2019, 07:45 PM
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I stand corrected.

I am very surprised though that in my 30+ years of being an Alfista I have never heard of an alloy bodied 1750 (not meaning just opening panels here but the guards + roof).

That is why I questioned the order, i.e. homoglation document first of after the cars were made.

A genuine alloy 1750 would be the pinnacle of the 105 series and as so rare (100 made apparently) that we, and all the books, would know about them.

How come we dont?, other than the Aussie one which was NOT produced by Alfa Romeo but creates in Australia so does not count as genuine.
Pete
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'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
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post #20 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-15-2019, 07:53 PM
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Steve,

Are we sure Alfa Romeo did not just make 1000 aluminium right doors and 1000 aluminium left doors and 1000 aluminium boot lids?

As you say "you could order a car with this spec."

And as they had already made many of these aluminium components for GTA's it would have been easy to homologate this, as thousands already made.

And yes I agree, of course, that many GTAm owners, once they were allowed to, would have bought these allow doors and boot lids.

But I still do not believe Alfa Romeo or Autodelta rolled out a brand new 1750 chassis with full alloy body work. Yes the Aussie made one but I could make one too.
Pete

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post #21 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-15-2019, 08:09 PM
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Here in this case the first page of FIA 1576 Group 2 GTAm.
Check the dates minima di 1000 esemplari ....
minimum of 1000 copies
raggiunta il 31 Iuglio 1969
reached 31 July 1969
Omologazione valida dal 1.10 1969
Approval valid from 1.10 1969
Have to have made them first then homologated in this case.
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post #22 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-15-2019, 08:37 PM
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Interesting to know that FIA still lists a number of Alfas which have homologation extensions
45069 31.12.2028 D-6328 Alfa Romeo 1750 GTAm 1576 G2 CT19
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post #23 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-15-2019, 09:58 PM
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As I understand the car should be homologated in 1000 pieces. Alfa Romeo in a case of 1750 GTAm homologated american version. FIA rep visited the factory and counted them or received the paper work confirmed the production.

Then there is a list of options or racing parts if we want to be clear. To homologate them every part was made in 100 pieces. They just made them and FIA rep counted them. These parts were not mounted on the cars

Read page 67 of the 1970 Appendix J
https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/def...dix_j_1970.pdf

There were no production of 1750/2000 GTV with light weight parts, it was not necessary for the homologation purposes. However based on Appendix J options were available freely at the manufacturer’s or his
dealers’ for any one wishing to purchase it. It must be mentioned in the manufacturer's catalogue of spare parts for the model concerned and properly identified.


This is the reason why every racing part had own number matching to manufacturer spare parts name structure. And this is the reason why they appeared in a special racing parts catalogs, and some of them in regular spare parts catalogs

I do not think it was an option to order 1750 with racing parts from the factory. There were no supply chain for this. Parts could be supplied separately but not mounted on the car. Also it was not mentioned in Appendix J. it was told that racing parts should should be available from spare parts catalogs. It is not mentioned that they should be available for ordering and mounting on the new car from the factory. It was the main point of new rules, parts could be made just in 100 pcs, otherwise they needed to homologate almost a racing car how it was with a Group B (200 cars for the homologation and 20 cars for Evolutions)

I attached a scan from QR where written that for the homologation parts were made in 100 pcs. Also Chiti mentioned that the cost of GTAm (about 7 mln lira) could be much less if the car was made in a small series.
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post #24 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-15-2019, 11:03 PM
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Here is another reference, showing both GTV and GTAm could use aluminum doors and deck lid (boot) as per FIA Group 2, which is as per what I was saying, but now with even more confidence.
Cheers Steve
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post #25 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-15-2019, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Max Pershyn View Post
As I understand the car should be homologated in 1000 pieces. Alfa Romeo in a case of 1750 GTAm homologated american version. FIA rep visited the factory and counted them or received the paper work confirmed the production.
Then there is a list of options or racing parts if we want to be clear. To homologate them every part was made in 100 pieces. They just made them and FIA rep counted them. These parts were not mounted on the cars
Hi Max,
Only problem with your argument was that the homologation document of 1000 cars under FIA 1576/3/2V which mentions alloy doors and deck lid. This means 1000 doors left and right each and 1000 deck lids, not the minimum of 100 as per rules but 1000 each as per homologation. You could order the car with the alloy parts from the factory, one of 1000 cars I think!
Cheers Steve
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post #26 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 03:02 AM
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A 1969 reference, showing use of the alloy parts on a GTV (not specific if it's a 1750 GTV, so could be a only for a 1600 GTV or both in this document)
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post #27 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 05:06 AM
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Hi Max,
Only problem with your argument was that the homologation document of 1000 cars under FIA 1576/3/2V which mentions alloy doors and deck lid. This means 1000 doors left and right each and 1000 deck lids, not the minimum of 100 as per rules but 1000 each as per homologation. You could order the car with the alloy parts from the factory, one of 1000 cars I think!
Cheers Steve
Steve, please read Appendix J

Quote:
aa) Optional equipment which may be recognized with a minimum production of 100 units per year to equip 100 cars :

Lightweight coachwork elements, such as aluminium doors, plexiglass lateral windows, glass fibre engine bonnets, etc. Nevertheless, the basic weight of the car mentioned on the recognition form shall not be modified.
The recognition of lightweight elements is only meant to compensate the manufacturing tolerances and the fitting of some optional equipment which results in an increase of the basic weight.

bb) Optional equipment which may be recognized without a minimum production :
Different dashboard.
— Protection shields under the car provided they do not decrease in a significant way the aerodynamic drag of the car.
Wing extensions, aesthetically acceptable, provided they do not entail an increase of the width of the wings of more than 5 cm on each side of the car. Measurement is to be done at the vertical going through the centre of the wheel hubs.
— Brakes of different type and/or dimensions, which may include larger hubs
and spindles.
cc) Any other option affecting directly or Indirectly the performance of the car cannot be recognized unless 1,000 identical cars equipped with this option have been manufactured in 12 consecutive months.

So, Lightweight coachwork elements could be made in a quantity of 100 per year and as it mentioned in chapter cc it was not necessary to mount them on the cars. Lightweight dashboards and wing extensions could be made in even less quantities then 100 per year!


P.S. The most interesting that performance parts catalog existed for the USA only. I think it means USA customers could order parts from dealers network. I have never seen a similar catalog for Italy/Germany or any other European country where Alfa Romeo used the most in competition. I think to get the parts private racing teams contacted Autodelta directly and never used a dealers network as a source of racing parts.

Last edited by Max Pershyn; 01-16-2019 at 05:17 AM.
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post #28 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 12:35 PM
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Hi Max,
You are talking about business processes, supply chains of Alfa, is there a source document you are referring from please list.
I am talking about documents that were used at the time so facts.
Your interpretation of 100 implies a maximum of 100, but it was only a minimum of 100, as in 1970 Alfa chose to make 1000 cars as per homologation FIA 1576/3/2V. May be some one at FIA could give us their interpretation. Does any one have a contact in FIA?
Regards Steve
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post #29 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 02:16 PM
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Steve,
Cars homologation and parts homologation are two different processes.

You actually think Autodelta made 100 and later 1000 GTAm cars equipped with all homologated options?

May I ask you, do you understand that automakers homologated just regular cars, taken from conveyor, and then produced racing parts. Cars and parts are not connected to each other. They are different homologation processes.

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post #30 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 02:22 PM
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XXX
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