New owner 1974 GTV has no idea what he got himself into - Page 6 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #76 of 259 (permalink) Old 03-15-2018, 11:26 AM
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That the studs are cut deliberately is like Ajay said is a pretty big deal to fix. However the big question is Why???? I wouldn't be surprised if that is hiding other problems. Given that the compression is in line with the overall condition of the car the motor needs to be rebuilt. You have all the preliminary symptoms of a common aliment all of us have suffered at one time or another. The WhileI'minthereitus diease is just a fact of life. Sure you can drive it with the low compression and all the other issues but it won't be reliable and you'll end up being frustrated with the car. You can do the motor, gearbox, and suspension now and have a reliable car that won't leave you stranded and you'll enjoy the experience. The cosmetic stuff can be done later. A basic motor rebuild won't break the bank, gaskets, valves, pistons and liners, bearings, and for sure, don't be tempted not to, a new oil pump. Spruell is a good source for a lot of the motor stuff.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
74 GTV restored daily driver
another 74 GTV restored driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
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post #77 of 259 (permalink) Old 03-15-2018, 01:58 PM Thread Starter
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another mechanic update...

Ok, now I have a real mystery on my hand: My mechanic believes the engine might be a 1600cc engine.

this is based on the following (keep in mind this is a car that was most likely sold in Italy):
- radiator hoses from a 1600 fit
- water pump for a 1600 fit
- mechanical fuel pump
- dip stick is located on the left of the engine (air intake/carb side)

What speaks against this is the engine number that is embossed. My understanding is that all 512 engines went into GTVs, Berlinas and Spider and date from the 1971 on...

Any ideas? Either someone embossed a new engine number on an old block or the engine was fixed over time with 1600 parts.. though the location of the dipstick might speak against that.. did any 2000s have dipsticks on the right?
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post #78 of 259 (permalink) Old 03-15-2018, 04:23 PM
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Even the Euro Alfetta's which came after the GTV's have mechanical fuel pumps and the dipstick on the right side. You have a 2L motor. I'm looking at a factory shop manual.
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The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
74 GTV restored daily driver
another 74 GTV restored driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
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post #79 of 259 (permalink) Old 03-15-2018, 07:09 PM Thread Starter
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Even the Euro Alfetta's which came after the GTV's have mechanical fuel pumps and the dipstick on the right side. You have a 2L motor. I'm looking at a factory shop manual.
I hope you are right though my mechanic is pretty convinced otherwise. I asked him to check the identification mark on the front of it as well (based on the info at veloce.se) and it supposedly is a circle with a square. Apparently there is another circle with a 1.6 in it as well. Hopefully I'll know more tomorrow..
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post #80 of 259 (permalink) Old 03-15-2018, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by evermore View Post
Ok, now I have a real mystery on my hand: My mechanic believes the engine might be a 1600cc engine:
- radiator hoses from a 1600 fit
- water pump for a 1600 fit
- mechanical fuel pump
- dip stick is located on the left of the engine (air intake/carb side)
I agree with gigem75; all the things you describe above are consistent with a European 2 liter. Measuring the deck height - distance from the top of the water pump to the head gasket - would distinguish a 1600 from a 2L. I'll measure my 1600 and 2L tomorrow and edit those dimensions into this post.

OK, I measured the heights of two timing chain covers that I have loose in my garage.

1600: 11-1/16" ~ 281 mm

2000: 11-15/32" ~ 291.3 mm

I realize that may it be pretty difficult to measure the block height of an assembled engine installed in a car.

We are all forgetting the most obvious difference between a 1600 and 2L: the oil filter. 1600's have a cartridge-type filter mounted on the block, while 2L's have a spin-on mounted on the timing chain cover. You can see the oil filter mount at the bottom of the photo of the 2L cover pictured below:
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Last edited by Alfajay; 03-16-2018 at 10:24 AM.
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post #81 of 259 (permalink) Old 03-15-2018, 07:25 PM Thread Starter
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I agree with gigem75; all the things you describe above are consistent with a European 2 liter. Measuring the deck height - distance from the top of the water pump to the head gasket - would distinguish a 1600 from a 2L. I'll measure my 1600 and 2L tomorrow and edit those dimensions into this post.
Thanks for checking. I really hope you guys are right. If this is a 1600cc engine, that would really suck. I would have no desire to rebuild it but putting in a different engine would be very costly so not sure what the plan is in that scenario..I'll go get pictures of the mark and the spacing tomorrow and will post as well.
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post #82 of 259 (permalink) Old 03-15-2018, 07:26 PM
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If it is a 1600 you have a good case to return the car. Personally I think you can do way better for what you spent. I have a fully restored driver and I mean fully that I won't be asking much more than that for.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
74 GTV restored daily driver
another 74 GTV restored driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
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post #83 of 259 (permalink) Old 03-15-2018, 07:31 PM Thread Starter
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If it is a 1600 you have a good case to return the car. Personally I think you can do way better for what you spent. I have a fully restored driver and I mean fully that I won't be asking much more than that for.
I am correct that the 512 engine number means it must be a 2000c engine, right? If I can then prove that this is not actually a 2000cc and that this number was tampered with, I would likely have a case.. let's hope that is not the case..
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post #84 of 259 (permalink) Old 03-15-2018, 07:47 PM
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I wouldn't go by numbers. Alfajay has the best solution. The head height for a 2 liter is 112mm new. 111.5mm minimum. that is from the head gasket to the bottom of the cam cover less gaskets.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
74 GTV restored daily driver
another 74 GTV restored driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
gigem75 is online now  
post #85 of 259 (permalink) Old 03-16-2018, 02:45 AM
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Radiator hoses and dipstick location are no factors to determine the engine size.
In Europe, all top hoses are the same, only dependent on whether you have a manifold with the screw-in thermostat or not, therefore only 2 hoses, irrespective of engine size.

I have now had three 2 litre Giulias. All have dipsticks on the inlet side of the engine.

Water pumps also are not determined by engine size, rather whether or not the car has dynamo or alternator, has cable driven tachometer, (2 or 3 outlet),or is carburettor or injection.

Most Euro cars that are carburettored initially have mech fuel pumps, although lots of people change them to electric.

Your engine number looks correct, and as you say, was fitted to 2 litre GTV, Berlina & Spiders.

Pretty sure that I've seen pics of a 2 litre head with (confusingly) a 1.6 cast into it, maybe at some time the 2 litre castings were in short supply, and the 1.6's were machined to 2 litre spec ?
Seen it before in tractor manufacture.
Steve
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post #86 of 259 (permalink) Old 03-16-2018, 06:22 AM
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A definitive way to know for sure, without a doubt, positively would be to check the stroke. Remove a spark plug, bring the piston to the top of the stroke insert a rod and zero it next to a ruler, rotate the crank 180 degrees to the bottom of the stroke and measure again. A 2 liter has a stroke of 88.5mm, a 1600 is 82mm. I really think you have a 1600 though.
The cam cover bolts on a 1600 need a 14mm allen wrench to remove them although they can be purchased and put on a 2L cam cover whereas the 2Ls need an open end 17mm wrench to remove them. I got mine from Classic Alfa because they are chrome and remind me of my first Alfa.
A 1600 does not have the two 6mm bolts on the front of the cam cover. 2Ls do have them and yours does. There are just to many things that add up to your having the correct motor.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
74 GTV restored daily driver
another 74 GTV restored driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
gigem75 is online now  
post #87 of 259 (permalink) Old 03-16-2018, 10:26 AM
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Evermore: See my edited post #80 above. My pertinent questions for you are: What sort of oil filter does the engine have? Does it attach to the front cover or to the block?
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Jay Mackro
San Juan Capistrano, CA

'63 Guilia spider
'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
'91 164L
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post #88 of 259 (permalink) Old 03-16-2018, 12:27 PM Thread Starter
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new pictures

so I went by the mechanic again to confirm a couple items.

- the engine marking is a circle with a square with a diagonal line
- the oil filter is located at the front of the engine
- the 2 bolts at the front of the cam cover.

All these confirm it is a 2000cc engine. Thanks to everyone that helped with this mystery! It was the other parts bolted on that suggested it's a 1600cc so I'm glad that is not the case. I should get the car back on Monday as we are waiting for a radiator hose.

On a separate note, there is evidence that the car had an accident on the driver side which did impact the engine mounts. The good news is that this must have happened a very long time ago as the repairs look like they are decades old.

Though I don't have evidence for myself yet, I asked Rich what the original color of the car was and he said he had seen blue on the frame somewhere.
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post #89 of 259 (permalink) Old 03-18-2018, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfajay View Post
Evermore: See my edited post #80 above. My pertinent questions for you are: What sort of oil filter does the engine have? Does it attach to the front cover or to the block?
This is a euro spec car. I guess you are thinking of a Giulia Sprint 1600 when you think of 1600.

But what we know as the 2000 GTV was manufactured right up to 1975 with both a 2000 and 1600 engine in Europe.

They even had the same 2000 instrument binnacle. These 1600's had the oil filter up front and the 2 x small bolts for the cam cover.

Attached are photos of a 1975 1600- hard to tell the difference!

Measuring the stroke through the plug hole would be the most effective way of deciding on the engine size.
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post #90 of 259 (permalink) Old 03-18-2018, 10:08 PM Thread Starter
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This is a euro spec car. I guess you are thinking of a Giulia Sprint 1600 when you think of 1600.

But what we know as the 2000 GTV was manufactured right up to 1975 with both a 2000 and 1600 engine in Europe.

They even had the same 2000 instrument binnacle. These 1600's had the oil filter up front and the 2 x small bolts for the cam cover.

Attached are photos of a 1975 1600- hard to tell the difference!

Measuring the stroke through the plug hole would be the most effective way of deciding on the engine size.

Ah, that does leave the engine mark though, the circle with a crossed out square inside though...
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