To Roll cage or not? - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 42 (permalink) Old 05-03-2016, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Federico View Post
Oh no! Are you OK Ian?
I'm fine thanks (Freek?) but my car is a bit of a mess
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post #17 of 42 (permalink) Old 05-03-2016, 02:48 PM
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Here enters the argument of fibreglass vs steel body !

Sorry to see that Ian. Gutted.

1989 Alfa 75 3.0V6 & 1971 Alfa Giulia GT1300 Junior

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post #18 of 42 (permalink) Old 05-03-2016, 02:49 PM
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Wow, that is really too bad.

Everyday is a school day. Learning something new all the time

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You're kidding, another one?! 1984 GTV6 Maratona
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You didn't...oh yes I did. '73 Berlina graduate course in rust repair. No thread yet, don't want to piss off the GTV

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post #19 of 42 (permalink) Old 05-03-2016, 04:08 PM
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Sorry to see that you had a shunt. Hope you can put it right in a reasonable time, and glad to hear you are okay.
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post #20 of 42 (permalink) Old 05-03-2016, 08:36 PM
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You need a better seat and belt.

Hi Sean

In answer to your original question about improving impact survive-ability, the first thing you need is a better seat (a FIA approved seat) and an improved seat-belt (a four or five belt harness as opposed to the two belt harness you have now).

When you see those crash test videos of a car hitting a barrier and the air bags deploying, notice that the crash test dummy is flapping around like a rag doll. This is because the seat is flexing, and the seatbelts do not hold the driver in the seat. Now look at some in car video of a NASCAR or touring car crash. Notice how securely the driver is held in the seat, and while his arm may flail around his torso doesn't.

In a collision your stock seats will flex and move like jelly, having made your car stiffer (by installing a roll cage) won't help because your torso is free to flail about.

The seat-belt company schroth, makes a four belt harness with an inertia reel, (Schroth AutoControl II) which nicely bridges the gap between race only four point harnesses and typical street two belt systems.

Hope this helps.
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post #21 of 42 (permalink) Old 05-04-2016, 12:44 AM
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Agreed! When I did my racing course first main (and in fact only) upgrade on the car was the seat and belts, no cage even.
Only when you do nearly all the driving at trackdays a cage would be a good option.
A normal GT wil handle ok when being hit by another car . Value of the cars nowadays will often make repairs economical also. Take care you have good valuation and insurance!!
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post #22 of 42 (permalink) Old 05-04-2016, 03:28 AM
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Sorry to see that, glad you are ok.
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post #23 of 42 (permalink) Old 05-04-2016, 04:24 AM
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Ian, Nice you are OK! good luck with the repairs, so it will be that very beatiful car you created again soon.
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post #24 of 42 (permalink) Old 05-04-2016, 05:35 AM Thread Starter
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Bloody hell Ian, that wont polish out

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post #25 of 42 (permalink) Old 05-04-2016, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milanoguy View Post
Hi Sean

In answer to your original question about improving impact survive-ability, the first thing you need is a better seat (a FIA approved seat) and an improved seat-belt (a four or five belt harness as opposed to the two belt harness you have now).

When you see those crash test videos of a car hitting a barrier and the air bags deploying, notice that the crash test dummy is flapping around like a rag doll. This is because the seat is flexing, and the seatbelts do not hold the driver in the seat. Now look at some in car video of a NASCAR or touring car crash. Notice how securely the driver is held in the seat, and while his arm may flail around his torso doesn't.

In a collision your stock seats will flex and move like jelly, having made your car stiffer (by installing a roll cage) won't help because your torso is free to flail about.

The seat-belt company schroth, makes a four belt harness with an inertia reel, (Schroth AutoControl II) which nicely bridges the gap between race only four point harnesses and typical street two belt systems.

Hope this helps.
A few points:

1) Any 4 point belt besides (arguably) the Shroth is dangerous due to submarining (the lap belt riding up and causing severe internal injuries by squeezing on the torso). Schroth claims to have resolved the issue with their "ASM" system, but I'm not willing to bet my life on it. I would only use a 4-point in an Autocross on an open course where it's really just to hold you in place, not protect in a serious crash against a hard object. Installing a 6 point is really not that much more difficult.

2) There's no reason to install a 5 point instead of a 6 point unless some obstruction in the car prevents installation of the 6th point. The 6 point is less likely to cause genital injuries in a wreck. Prices are about the same these days.

3) Harnesses have a problem with causing neck injuries if used without a HANS device (not practical on the street as you have to wear a helmet and have limited head movement). Your body is held in place, but your head isn't unless you are using the HANS. A 3-point with an airbag is going to be safer on the street than a 6 point since the airbag helps prevent the head from snapping forward. Since our Alfas don't have airbags, it's probably safer to be in a 6 point than a 3-point, but I don't think there's much hard data out there on the topic.

4) As stated above, a full cage can present head-injury risk. However, a FIA rated seat and harnesses should help prevent this. A lot is going to depend how far the halo portion of the cage is away from your head. That's going to depend on the build, the vehicle, the driver, and the seat setup.

5) Remember, that safety is a system. Everything has to work in concert, and adding only one item can hurt safety. Installing a harness without fixed-back rated seats, for example, may make things worse than no harness. Adding harnesses without roll-over protection is likewise dangerous, not to mention the fact that without a harness bar attached to the cage, it's unlikely you are going to get a proper mounting angle for the shoulder straps.

Last edited by nealric; 05-04-2016 at 08:48 AM.
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post #26 of 42 (permalink) Old 05-04-2016, 01:45 PM
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My car had a 1/2 cage in back and the rear seat bottom is cut and upholstered to reflect that, kinda funny in fact. IF you ever go that route, maybe we can trade ;-)

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post #27 of 42 (permalink) Old 05-04-2016, 02:08 PM
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I think I will look into a better seat as a starting point, any good recommendations for a nice street seat?
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post #28 of 42 (permalink) Old 05-04-2016, 04:34 PM
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I used a kirkey intermediate road race seat with kirkey mounts. It bolted right up to the Alfa seat mounts with no modification and can be swapped back at any time.
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post #29 of 42 (permalink) Old 05-07-2016, 01:09 AM
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You are welcome to come and have a poke about inside mine Sean. I have a full cage fitted with door bars, decent touring seats (not FIA) and four point harnesses.
The upsides are a more solid feel to the chassis, it would be safer in a crash, accepted there are degrees of safetyness... (!) and as mentioned it could be better, but I'd rather have what I have than standard seats, lap belts etc.
The downsides are a backseat which is pretty useless, door bars restrict entry and exit, there is a knack to it, but it's not very elegant. Over shoulder vision is limited by the metalwork and you can't lean forward to get a better view.
The issue of cracking your un protected head on a cage keeps coming up in these discussions and I keep referring people to the hundreds of road rally cars in the UK. We are not allowed to use Helmets, yet most serious competitors use cages, I have never actually heard of an injury caused where head contacted cage in an accident. It's sensible to protect the cage with the right padded material though.
One point to bear in mind with the Bertone is the limited space, the main hoop needs to be well back in the car and fit close to the rear side windows to make enough space on the drivers side for a decent seat. It's harder for us in right hand drive than it is for the left hand drive guys. There is 50mm less width on the right due to the offset transmission tunnel.
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post #30 of 42 (permalink) Old 05-07-2016, 01:20 AM
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most cages have indeed a wrong layout for the limited space in the cabin. The Alfaholics one is much better executed. Main bar behind the seats is further backward, you have horizontal bars for the belts, and you can use your window mechanism...(last one is a big issue on longer trips and for rally use)
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