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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-16-2015, 03:46 PM Thread Starter
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Rebuilding a Classic

Hi All,

After many years of dreaming about a GTV I am finally a proud owner of one. I was fortunate enough to find what I would consider a solid rare car, 69, California car purchased from the original owner! The car is in need of some tlc but is very solid for its age so I am excited about bringing the car back to its former glory.

So, with all of my excitement I have come upon a big question...How should I go about restoring this car!? I want to stay true to the origins of the car but I am also interested in making the car unique but tasteful while improving performance. So let's start a conversation on what would be considered tasteful and proper vs just plain wrong!

I will start with some ideas:

Paint: Moving from the original silver into a metallic blue with more of a silver undertone much like this: Shell Painted & Ready for Assembly - Classic Alfa Romeo spare parts
Car is red now and needs to be redone.

Engine: Staying with a 1750+Spica but modifying to put out closer to 175

Brakes: Can I upgrade these without having rotten fruit thrown at me!!Just replaced master cylinder, brake pads etc but the brakes feel a little week (first real classic car though).

Suspension: If I am increasing the power and possibly the brakes it would only make sense to give the suspension some love, how far can I go with this before turning it into a hot rod...

Interior: I am staying classic on this for the most part but thinking of replacing the famous"basket weave" material with a real leather basket weave. For such a great car I feel bad putting something into it that is real in what came out of the factory but fake in terms of what it is supposed to be.. guess I want to go with something "real, but fake".

In the end I am not going to track the car much if any and will be driving it in the hills of LA mostly. I want to make the car nice but I also want to be mindful of keeping the value of the car up, I do not plan on selling the car anytime sooner than 20 yrs so have to factor in mods that will make the car sing to me while I have it.

Let me know your ideas
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-16-2015, 07:57 PM
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Congrats on finding a great year of a great car. For inspiration you might want to go to the Alfaholics site. In my opinion they do a great job of hot-rodding 105 series alfas while staying largely true to the DNA of the car. From kicking tires with a lot of fellow enthusiasts, I haven't heard very many say they felt a well set up GTV in the alfaholics mold has ever lacked for practicality, excitement or trampled too much on originality. They have a "fast road" suspension that comes in many flavors. I don't hear too many complaints about the factory ATE calipers set up with good pads and fresh discs, for sure it does take some adjustment when comparing modern to classic breaking however. Getting 175hp from your 1750 will be feat, but getting a healthy measure more that stock, wonderful feeling a sounding horsepower should be quite simple. Keeping SPICA is a very very good choice in my opinion - the major bridge you need to cross is whether you'll stay within what an unmodified pump can provide, or if you'll send it to Wes Ingram for a "HP" built to suit more extensive mods. Given the weight and character of these cars, my plan is for the former - I'm using high compression pistons and liners, euro cams and a few other goodies with stock spica.


Using a non-factory paint color and interior finish material irks me, but its not my car. If it helps, consider that a great many Italian sports cars from the classic era used high quality vinyl not leather for the interior and that leather may not be able to follow the curves of the flying buttresses - surely some of the greatest seats to grace a sporting coupe. Seeing bunchy upholstery that can't hang with the factory shape is to me akin to seeing drips in paint.

Post some pics already!

'73 GTV bare metal project... nearing 'car' status
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-16-2015, 08:31 PM
Del
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Unless the entire chassis, inside and out, is painted the same color, any change in outside color decreases the value significantly. Always wise to stay with the original color so that everything matches.

Sounds like a very nice car to restore.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-16-2015, 09:31 PM
I would chirp in on a couple of points. First, make a realistic budget. Next, assess your abilities and time. Based on your list I'm going to guess you'll need about $30k with you supplying the majority of the labor. That's about $10k in bodywork, $10k in motor mods, $5k in the interior and $5k in brakes /suspension upgrades. As a first timer I would say 2-3 years if you are really motivated.

My suggestion is that you drive it for a season. Fall in love with it. Then when you feel like quitting midway through the project, you can remember the good times. It's a ton of work but the reward is great.

Colors: before you venture outside, take a look at the Alfa pallet - you might find something you like. I did my flying buttress seats in leather. They are beautuful, expensive and slightly less comfortable than the basket weave. The factory vinyl is very high quality.

The 69 is my favorite. Look forward to pictures.

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Last edited by gprocket; 02-16-2015 at 09:34 PM.
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-16-2015, 09:37 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Del View Post
Unless the entire chassis, inside and out, is painted the same color, any change in outside color decreases the value significantly. Always wise to stay with the original color so that everything matches.

Sounds like a very nice car to restore.
Thanks,

Planning to do a full stripping of the paint so that I can change the color correctly. The car has been painted a few times so the paint that is on it is not exactly sitting correctly. Sadly, the original color of the car is silver which happens to be my least favorite original color so finding it hard to pay for a full restoration in that color. Maybe I will fall in love with the silver eventually...
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-16-2015, 09:50 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by r-mm View Post
Congrats on finding a great year of a great car. For inspiration you might want to go to the Alfaholics site. In my opinion they do a great job of hot-rodding 105 series alfas while staying largely true to the DNA of the car. From kicking tires with a lot of fellow enthusiasts, I haven't heard very many say they felt a well set up GTV in the alfaholics mold has ever lacked for practicality, excitement or trampled too much on originality. They have a "fast road" suspension that comes in many flavors. I don't hear too many complaints about the factory ATE calipers set up with good pads and fresh discs, for sure it does take some adjustment when comparing modern to classic breaking however. Getting 175hp from your 1750 will be feat, but getting a healthy measure more that stock, wonderful feeling a sounding horsepower should be quite simple. Keeping SPICA is a very very good choice in my opinion - the major bridge you need to cross is whether you'll stay within what an unmodified pump can provide, or if you'll send it to Wes Ingram for a "HP" built to suit more extensive mods. Given the weight and character of these cars, my plan is for the former - I'm using high compression pistons and liners, euro cams and a few other goodies with stock spica.


Using a non-factory paint color and interior finish material irks me, but its not my car. If it helps, consider that a great many Italian sports cars from the classic era used high quality vinyl not leather for the interior and that leather may not be able to follow the curves of the flying buttresses - surely some of the greatest seats to grace a sporting coupe. Seeing bunchy upholstery that can't hang with the factory shape is to me akin to seeing drips in paint.

Post some pics already!
Thanks for the input! I have been looking into having Wes work his magic on the engine, if I can afford it! Defiantly thinking of going with the performance Spica. I agree on the seats so the only way I would change the material is if the leather was able to truly fit the seats well.
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-16-2015, 11:12 PM
Del
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" Sadly, the original color of the car is silver which happens to be my least favorite original color so finding it hard to pay for a full restoration in that color. Maybe I will fall in love with the silver eventually..."

My experience of almost 50 years of owning Alfas is that you rarely end up with your fav color when you buy one. You end up living with what you can get, lol. My wife was always irritated about that.

I always rationalized it by saying that it's the driving experience, sound, and styling which makes an Alfa that you want, the color coming in fourth.

However, for me, everything has to match. Different colored engine bay and trunk is the one big turn off for me.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 02-17-2015 at 09:44 AM.
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-17-2015, 07:02 AM
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I would suggest thinking about what you want from the car. Is it a car you plan to keep for many many years? Do you need to be able to sell it for a profit when you are done with it, or are you willing to lose some money and accept it as investment in fun for yourself?

If you want to absolutely maximize your ROI, original color is probably your best option. However, if "value" is less of the concern vs. owning a car you totally love, then I'd say go ahead and paint it whatever color floats your boat. As others have suggested though, if you are going to change the color, do it right and paint the ENTIRE car. Opening a hood and seeing a different color in the engine bay vs. the body is just no bueno.

Good luck with the project!!

My "rejuvenation" blog: http://65tomfoolery.wordpress.com
'65 Alfa Giulia Sprint GT, a long way to go still….
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-17-2015, 09:19 AM
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If you want to absolutely maximize your ROI, original color is probably your best option. However, if "value" is less of the concern vs. owning a car you totally love, then I'd say go ahead and paint it whatever color floats your boat. As others have suggested though, if you are going to change the color, do it right and paint the ENTIRE car. Opening a hood and seeing a different color in the engine bay vs. the body is just no bueno.
On the topic of color and adding to what Trich wrote:

There is sort of a continuum here:

- Absolute purists would say you should keep the car silver if that's how it left the factory. And of course, not just "silver", but the exact paint code that Alfa used in 1969.

- The next step down from there would be to paint the car one of the other colors that was offered by Alfa Romeo in 1969. Sort of like transporting yourself back to an Alfa dealership in 1969 and choosing the color of your new car.

- Next step would be painting it a non-original color, but one available in 1969. Something single stage, non-metallic, not "wild". A color that Alfa didn't offer in 1969, but perhaps was offered on MG's, Mercedes, Peugeots, ... of that era.

- The last step down this slippery slope would be to paint it a modern color not available in 1969. Something like "a metallic blue with more of a silver undertone".

If you have any interest in showing your Alfa, a deviation beyond step #2 will cost you points.

I'm not in the camp that says doing anything beyond step #1 would be evil - my own Sprint corresponds to step #3 , so I certainly can't throw stones.

Jay Mackro
San Juan Capistrano, CA

'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
'91 164L

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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-17-2015, 09:46 AM
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Many adventurous stories, start over: Found a solid california car.

Post pictures and even then it is difficult. You are viewing condition only when no more color on the car is. Inside and outside.

Color: Original or original color according to your own taste. Other color but only if the car is painted inside and out with the new color.

Engine: Original works, any change must be carefully considered and lead to other changes

Brakes: Cheap and good alternative brakes are from the Alfa 75
With stronger engine and wider wheels standing wall should be strengthened. How has Alfa Romeo made in the later Alfa Spider

Interior: Leather seats with basket weave there were not original. Original leather seats have 7 smooth strip and see **** off. Have photos. In Austria makes a company minting basket weave leather. Looks better than the synthetic leather is just not origial. I am building a smooth leather seats from GT Veloce 1968

Free tip: if you welded repair sheet. A weld is always 2 sides inside and an outside.
In treating are always two sides to protect against rust. Outside can be beautiful if you're doing nothing inside it rusts from the inside out. Looking image is the raw acting inside the new wheel arch. An the car is the the wheel is in the way

Suggestions, you can find in my thread. As approximate size. Car body build original and rust free and so that this not rust again in 5 years. Until grants 4000 hours of work. The only worthwhile if reinforced stitching on the car for you and drive in 20 years so want

Saluti
Marcel
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-17-2015, 11:14 AM Thread Starter
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Just got a message from Marco Fazio...Looks like my "69" was built 2 months into the 70's
Still a "69" to me! Original color was metallic light grey. Think I am going to stick with a stock color for Alfa but still not feeling the original color. In the event that I do an original color and paint it inside and out, how much of a loss will I see on value? I am thinking that the value I might loose in not going original will be made up in enjoyment over the course of ownership with a color that speaks to me a little more. For example, if the car sells for 5k less in 20yrs I will only be paying $250 a year to have a car in a color I really like, my numbers might be off but based off of this, seems like going with an original color that I like might not be a major problem.

Onto original colors...Is it possible to get an original color sheet? I have found examples online but the image is so bad a lot of the colors look the same so it makes choosing a color even harder.
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-17-2015, 12:01 PM
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I'll add a step between 2 & 3 - pick a color that was offered on another Alfa model, same year. The Zagatos and Montreals (starting 1970 I believe) came in some amazing colors. I would be shocked if you couldn't find something that piques your interest in the entire Alfa catalog. I've been told that the factory would often grant such cross-model paint requests, so strictly speaking this isn't going too far afield.

As a minor color snob and avid classic car window shopper (and actual shopper) I can volunteer that for me a well done bare metal inside and out respray in a factory color using good paint would detract zero dollars from the car's value - presuming I like the color. Most would agree that going from something interesting and unique like Giallo Ochre to plain old alfa red would incur a penalty, but I think even more people would agree that having rock solid paint sitting on a documented, straight rust free car trumps nearly everything. These are old cars after all and even the "survivors" have rust, so body condition and the quality of paint is an enormously high priority. After that, these are cheap cars. A motor can be rebuilt and hopped up for a few grand, all the suspension pieces are cheaper than honda parts, ditto brakes, etc etc.

Finding pictures of cars in colors you like is a full time job (see my recent post looking for decent Bluette pics). If you name some of those you're interested in I can post some of those I've collected over the years. Do you like unique/period colors? Bright colors? Blues, reds, greens? You can also surf the "lets post pics of 105's" thread or this group on Flickr:
https://www.flickr.com/groups/alfa-bertone/

'73 GTV bare metal project... nearing 'car' status
E30 Daily - '65 912 project... no longer in waiting
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-17-2015, 12:18 PM
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Think I am going to stick with a stock color for Alfa but still not feeling the original color. In the event that I do an original color and paint it inside and out, how much of a loss will I see on value?
No offense, but that's a pretty funny question! So few of these cars are traded and the market is so irrational, that it would be absurd for anyone to say "changing from grigio metallizzato to Giallo Ochre will reduce the selling price by 3.7% twenty years from now".

So many other factors influence the selling price of these cars that I think I can safely say that color is usually lost in the noise. Not that it isn't a factor, but it is swamped by so many other things (like how drunk the bidders are when your car crosses the auction block!).

r-mm adds a good point above: changing the color from a popular one, to a yucky one will probably cost you, regardless of whether these colors are factory original. And what defines "popular" and "yucky"? Well, it's all in the perception of your prospective buyer!

Jay Mackro
San Juan Capistrano, CA

'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
'91 164L

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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-17-2015, 12:20 PM
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Your initial post expresses an urge for 175 HP.

It is more practical to "build" a very strong 2 L.

Keep the 1750 for future purists.

With performance in mind, you could consider welding all the seams.

105 and 101 Alfas featured a compliant and well-located suspension that was designed to be quick on "B" roads. If you intend to drive aggressively on such roads don't put in a set up stiff enough for the track.

Just my opinion.


Bob,
Avatar is the 68 Super, bought new.
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-17-2015, 01:05 PM
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Sounds to me you just want a fun, good looking car that you plan to keep for a LONG time, right? In that case stop worrying. Paint it any color you want. I would avoid some of the really ugly colors out there - certain 911 "skittles" colors come to mind, as does that hideous orange color you see so many Lambos in - but that metallic blue you posted from Alfaholics is gorgeous and tasteful. I can't see that color hurting the value significantly to anyone other than a purist looking for an all-original show car - which your car is already not. Same goes for a nice leather interior.

If you can find some color codes of colors that you think you might like, you can take the color to a local auto paint supply house and they can provide you with chips.

As far as performance mods go, I tend to prefer "period correct" mods. In other words, something which would not have been unusual when the car was new. Which in '69 means just about anything except EFI. It would not have been at all unusual in '69 to upgrade the suspension and brakes on a car like this and "massage" some more power out of the engine. I recently saw that Alfa Parts Exchange has a "big brake" kit that includes ventilated rotors and Wilwood 4-pot calipers. That seems like it might be pushing it a bit far (but perhaps not!) but certainly things like drilled rotors, stainless lines, Koni shocks, "performance springs" from IAP or Centerline or someone, etc. are perfectly period correct and not unusual to see on a GTV on the street in 1970.

My $.02.

Chris

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1990 Spider Veloce
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