How much does originality effect the value of a gt? - Page 8 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #106 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-22-2018, 12:03 PM
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A case in point...on BringATrailer last week was a restored Giulietta Spider Veloce. The car was a decent restoration and the car should have easily made over $100K. However, if I was looking like a potential buyer, there were things that jumped out at me that was "not original" as the car came from the factory. Several items caught my attention right off. The differential center was painted black like the car. Instead of buying the correct rubber mat set, the trunk has a full wool liner, the front had no mats, and that just doesn't look right. Then the air hoses are swapped. Sure, some of these are easy fixes, but it makes one wonder what else is not correct. The car bidding went as high as $40K. So, the potential buyers must have thought about what else wasn't original.
Cars that have the original patina from new do fetch more as they are like potential time machines. The adage is true, "Cars are only original once."
Also, cars from certain restorers do bring high dollar as they are restored to a high level of authenticity.
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post #107 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-22-2018, 01:49 PM
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Your comment of being outrun by soccer mums in mini -vans though is a case in point. it is a fact that even fast cars of the past are no longer fast compared to new cars let alone electric cars and something one has to face up to but does it matter. My point is accept them for what they are and the technology they represent. Even now technology is making the current crop slow so what does it matter but what does matter is the true sensation and feel of the past, 1300cc power or not afterall it is only by comparison that the car is slow. I bet in isolation it feels sufficiently quick to satisfy. The problem is in relation to our cars we are living in the future and thus comparing what we experience now with then. Originality is difficult to come to terms with sometimes isn`t it. I think though that there will be sufficient people curious enough to experience the past to pay for something that truly represents the past and with Alfa Romeo representing some of the best of that era design, technology and performance in all aspects.
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'65 Giulia Ti, '69 GT Junior, 72 Spider, '74 2000 GTV, ,`00 156
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post #108 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-22-2018, 02:45 PM
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A modern Honda Civic would blow a Ferrari 250GT SWB away and lap faster ... would that stop you buying a 250GT SWB?

This comment about minivans out running cool old cars is, sorry but, so bloody stupid ... if you are worried about drag racing performance why the heck are you interested in Alfas in the first place? Makes no sense, Alfas have always been slow, relatively off the line, their performance comes from maintaining momentum through the corners and upper gear speed. The sort of car that feels slowish on the road but quick on a race track.

Heck my 156v6 would not out accelerate a Hyundai i30 of the line, but above 100km/h things would be different (gearing?).

So relax, like what you like. There is no correlation between acceleration away from the lights and your penis length.
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post #109 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-22-2018, 07:48 PM
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Depends what you are looking for and how you use your classic. I agree though that the Alfaholics modded cars are nice but I would only have one if I also had a stock standard GTV, or Giulia as well. To me there is something about accepting what they are and accepting what they aren`t. Having owned and driven extremely fast cars there has to be something more than speed per se as that sensation soon wears off. It is that feeling of a nice well sorted "pedigree" car and that feeling of going back in time, and with something special and different that gets me. Class wins through always.
That is what I was thinking, 'Going back in time' what was it like to drive the car at the time it was made.
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post #110 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-23-2018, 07:02 AM
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That is what I was thinking, 'Going back in time' what was it like to drive the car at the time it was made.
You’ve hit on a really good point here. Just because a car remains ‘original’ doesn’t necessarily mean it’s drives like it did when new. Things wear out, maintenance can be done poorly, etc.

Many years ago I got to drive a very low mileage Giulia Super that truly was as new, and it was just sublime. Exquisite, so sweet to the touch. It swung and sang it’s way through the hills around Melbourne in ways that are hard to describe in words.

I’ve driven far too many 105’s over the years than I care to remember and this was one of maybe 2-3 that stand out like that. It’s not how the look or are finished that make a good car great, any decent restoration shop can give you that. It’s how they feel, how they drive, do they have that sweet balance that they had when new. You know within a few hundred metres of driving, all the specs and photos in the world won’t tell you that.
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post #111 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-23-2018, 08:23 AM
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It pains me to read the raves from the BaT peanut gallery whenever they see a fresh restoration with shiny paint and a clean undercarriage. There’s nothing like a well maintained, unmolested GTV with just the right amount of patina and a whiff of VR 20w50. I dread the day that my GTV ever needs a full bare metal restoration. It will take too long and will never be the same. It may look brand new, but the doors may not close right and it will take many miles to sort out the car to its current state of pure 70s driving experience.
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post #112 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-23-2018, 11:18 AM
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post #113 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-24-2018, 01:24 PM
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Generally, the discussion here on "value" misses this point.

"We all know" what it REALLY takes to regain and/or maintain that tight and right driving experience in our cars - assuming "we all know" this driving experience in the first place. Right?

I imagine many alfa owners never experience it.

When I see all these "restored" examples changing hands without the buyer ever seeing it in person - and more importantly driving it - I just have to laugh.

Value haa! My values are based in the experience and journey - cultivating greatness in my 105s - restoring, maintaining and driving them. I expect many folks pass through alfa ownership without ever really experiencing these values... at any price !
I understand what you are saying some of the value is priceless in the memories as part of the personal value when generated in fixing and using a car to drive as it did when first made, and that we are talking about GT cars mainly.
Even owners of GTA or owners of replica GTA cars create value as you say as part of the memory for them selves by the doing process.
So in effect the memories are are not part of the sale price, but they tend to be for GTAs. Even to the point of listing the body number, and listing every person and owner from day one!

So taking on board your comment and the fact that there are so few steel 105's today, some less than a few hundred left (my guess) like the GTAs. I pose why don't we start the same historical review of these cars like each GTA is documented, we already have some of the history via ourselves.
List body number, owners prior, and history as known.
cheers Steve
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post #114 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-24-2018, 10:16 PM
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"So in effect the memories are are not part of the sale price, but they tend to be for GTAs. Even to the point of listing the body number, and listing every person and owner from day one!"
This is the underlying reason for my registers and others like them is to document the existence of the car, condition and any history to help with provenance. There are few cars that have history back to the original owner unless there is a paper trail that comes with the car.
The more we can establish as being in existence from the original factory run, the more we can establish a value, especially from sales and auctions. Add in the level of original patina or quality of the restoration, you can establish a value. The more original the higher the value. If a car has the Gold ASI plate you know it has a complete paper trail from day one and is in a high state of originality/restoration. These cars to me should bring the highest value IMHO.
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post #115 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-25-2018, 01:08 AM
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GTA race history sets them apart. Far more important than originality.

Imagine owning the GTA that won Spa, for example!, or driven by Jochen Rindt. Imagine sitting in that same seat ...

Also same goes for GTs. If Paul Newman was a previous owner or it otherwise had an interesting history it would be worth considerably more.
Pete
ps: soon originality will move to the fore with all these old Alfas, especially when electric cars take over. We will want to experience the automotive past and how fun they were back in the 60s & 70s (peak automotive period IMO).

Modifying these old cars to make them drive like modern cars makes no sense to me. Removes what is so good about them. Modern cars suck.
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post #116 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-25-2018, 04:47 AM
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" Modern cars suck." PSk

Absolutely agree your post but but my FIAT Abarth 500c esse esse doesn't suck nor did my 147 GTA....sorry!

Richard
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post #117 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-25-2018, 09:48 AM
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I love my 51 year old Duetto (I'm the first and only owner), but I drive my BMW 325Ci every day and really enjoy it. The Duetto is for sunny days driving on the back roads and hills in SoCal. The Duetto is not totally original - I used to race Alfas and have adopted many of those things. But everything is strictly Alfa: 2L very hot motor, CR transmission, 45 DCOE carbs with original air box, LSD differential, Shankle springs and sway bars, 14" 205/60-14 tires on period MiniLites. Visually it looks completely stock, but it is a wonder to drive.

She needs a paint job, and I have all the Alfa OEM replacements for the interior, and a new top all awaiting installation. Thinking about the color; red? But every Alfa turns red after 20 or 30 years somehow.

Still thinking about installing the sliding block rear suspension I have left over from my racing days.

But will all those changes affect the value? (She's not for sale). Will I care?

Robert
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post #118 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-25-2018, 11:26 AM
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post #119 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-25-2018, 12:46 PM
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" Modern cars suck." PSk

Absolutely agree your post but but my FIAT Abarth 500c esse esse doesn't suck nor did my 147 GTA....sorry!

Richard
Okay, most modern cars suck 🙂

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post #120 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-25-2018, 01:00 PM
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Will I care?

Robert
Why on earth would you? The monetary value remains peanuts - by cost of living std, and even more so relative to the joy it's brought to your life... no?

This is not an interesting discussion - how much it's worth blah blah blah...
Have to agree with this post!

Pete

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