How much does originality effect the value of a gt? - Page 6 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #76 of 131 (permalink) Old 05-03-2015, 10:21 AM
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On Hagety, for 105's, I have found about ~1/3rd of the prices are to low, ~1/4rd are too high and the rest where I'd expect them. IOW, it s not very reliable. One thought is that it's NOT based on actual market sales, BUT with folks who insure with them and based on their "declared value". Perhaps many insured are only fair or good drivers (or Non-Op) and not insured so high? And perhaps folks keep their valuation down a bit - especially if they do not drive them much or they are Non-Op - so they pay less insurance? (perhaps not a good strategy if it's badly damaged). And perhaps folks have not changed their valuation for many years as the market has risen or maybe folks just haven't kept up with valuations. There are 4 good reasons why Hagerty might be "off". But none of these explains the "higher" prices unless their pricing guy is partial to GT's ;-). At any rate I'd personally discount Hagerty as a pricing tool and perhaps look to Hemmings, or other anecdotal evidence of actual sales prices (but that is hard to come by).

That said, it DOES feel like sale prices of similar condition early GT's has passed early Spiders by a significant margin, perhaps $10-20k. And Supers are making a strong run right behind, being tempered a bit only by ample supply (overseas and lately even here). Perhaps the added bit of comfort for aging Boomers explains this. I love my 69 Spider but, boy, am I crippled and more fatigued after a long drive. Just thoughts . . . .

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Last edited by Anfanuts; 05-03-2015 at 10:33 AM. Reason: add "That said . . .
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post #77 of 131 (permalink) Old 05-03-2015, 02:17 PM
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While a small supply, they are not "rare" like the high-end Italian cars. There are still drivers-quality cars in the $10,000 range.
The current (for the US---we're a month behind Y'Urp) Thoroughbred and Classic Cars value guide places stepnose prices in competition with Jr' Z's. That's a very interesting competition. Stepnose prices also compete with Ferrari 308GT4 prices.

Jim . . . '72 Super 1300, '70, 1750GTV, 2nd series,
'62, Lancia Flaminia Zagato3c, 2nd series
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post #78 of 131 (permalink) Old 07-31-2015, 11:34 AM
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Non-original colors (interior and exterior)... Still for sale... Asking price on a downward trend...

Alfa Romeo Other GTV 2000 | eBay

Ken
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post #79 of 131 (permalink) Old 07-31-2015, 12:13 PM
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Based on the non-original features and asking $39+K I could guess that my one owner/me 72GTV with 90K miles that I am restoring should be worth every bit as much if not more than the one on ebay. Granted, it will not be concourse when I'm done but I don't really care. I want to drive it and not worry about a gravel pit here or there. Everything will be original but the wheels, dash cover and trunk carpeting. But for all in all it's gonna be pretty clean. I could ask $40K but will I get it is the million dalla question.
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post #80 of 131 (permalink) Old 07-31-2015, 04:37 PM
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You have quite a few key factors in your favor to keep the value high... The others will be the quality of the restoration work and finding the right buyer if and when you want to sell. But you need to have all of them aligned to get top dollar...

Ken
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post #81 of 131 (permalink) Old 07-31-2015, 08:10 PM
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" all of them aligned" are you talking about the stars in an astrological sense?
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post #82 of 131 (permalink) Old 08-01-2015, 12:59 AM
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About eight or nine years ago, I declined a serious offer for my early '65 Sprint GT which was considerably in excess of the uppermost figures being mentioned. Originality and condition are everything; that funny paper can be found everywhere.

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to all parts I have advertised on the BB so far. Plenty more! Just ask.
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post #83 of 131 (permalink) Old 08-01-2015, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by dlbehrns View Post
" all of them aligned" are you talking about the stars in an astrological sense?
Sure, that too...

But seriously, originality can effect value as well as condition, documented history, provenance, upgrades and modifications. It's the combination and how well the entire package comes together that makes or breaks the agreed upon value between a buyer and seller. While you say that you're not going for a concours restoration and it doesn't really matter since you'll be driving the car, not all concours cars are trailer queens (mine is a good example). And actually having your car shown and judged is a good way of having a third party determine how well your restoration was executed, and having the judging sheet or certification to prove it. There will be compromises in every restoration, and those choices by them selves may not seem like much, but will cumulatively have an impact on the value of your car. Not everyone is going to be able to draw a short line on those compromises (like Rosanno and his amazing blue 1750 that he is documenting in another thread), but those choices and details to originality and condition do and will affect value.

Ken
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post #84 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 05:02 AM
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1969 colors

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What are all colors that the 1969 gtvs come in?
Just interested to see what colors I could paint the car maybe besides red and green.
This is an old post, but does anyone know? The thread lost the topic.

Alfa Romeo 1750 GT Veloce 1969
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post #85 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-19-2018, 03:09 AM
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Here is a table from WiKi and a link. (I am not at home near my Fusi and Tabucci so this has to suffice for now.) Many more made than one would have thought - over 225,000 total, but less than half of the Giulias over the same period.

Over 105,000 Junior's alone. Some 120,000+ "seniors". But very few early ones, especially stepnose GTV's (14k). No Juniors officially imported to the US, and few GT's before the 69MY (1750).

There cannot be more than several hundred stepnoses here (??). About the same number as all running Giulia sedans here.

(The table may corrupt when saved but the data is there.)

Version Years of production Units produced[1]
Sprint GT from 1963 to 1966 21,542
Sprint GTC from 1964 to 1966 1,000
Sprint GTV from 1965 to 1968 14,240
1750 GTV from 1968 to 1973 44,269
2000 GTV from 1971 to 1976 37,459
GT 1300 Junior from 1965 to 1977 91,195
GT 1600 Junior from 1972 to 1976 14,299

Besides their graceful look, simplicity and lack of spunk applied, the relative rarity drives the price of a stepnose. IMO they will always fetch a premium over the later GT's in similar condition. But then again, this may be an acquired taste, like a Giulia. There is a comparative wad of 1750's and 2L's here - many thousands - vs. many hundreds of stepnoses. And you can always plop a 2l in for more grins.
The right hand drive (RHD) version of these cars is also a factor in particular for the Sprint GTV from 1966 to 1967
For the year 1966 GTV 1600 RHD there were 772 Low arch cars with Dunlop brakes (ATEs were an option: ATE calipers and ATE adapter plates on Dunlop uprights).

For the year 1967 963 cars were made and there were three versions of the car in 1967 for GTV 1600 RHD

Version 1: Made ~400 cars from 1st January 67 to 15th Jun 67: Low arch cars with Dunlop brakes (ATEs were an option).
Version 2: Made ~263 cars from 16th June 67 to 16th October 67: Low arch cars with ATEs brakes as standard; ATE calipers and ATE adapter plates on Dunlop uprights).
Version 3: Made 300 cars from 17th October 67 to 31st December 67: High arch cars with ATEs as standard;

So the rarest step nose car is a 1967: version 2
Sprint GTV RHD from Jan 1966 to Dec 1966 772
Version 1: Sprint GTV RHD from 1st Jan 1967 to 15th June 1967 ~400
Version 2: Sprint GTV RHD from 16th June 1967 to 16th Oct 1967 ~263
Version 3: Sprint GTV RHD from 17th Oct 1967 to 31st Dec 1967 300
As for the desirability of a RHD GTV well, my preference would be version 2, then 1 then 3.
Cheers Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 12-21-2018 at 02:03 PM. Reason: Dates corrected: more information sourced
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post #86 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-19-2018, 09:41 AM
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This is an old post, but does anyone know? The thread lost the topic.
Here is the chart from post #16: https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gt-...ml#post1182439

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post #87 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-19-2018, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve105 View Post
The right hand drive (RHD) version of these cars is also a factor in particular for the Sprint GTV from 1966 to 1967
For the year 1966 GTV 1600 RHD there were 772 Low arch cars with Dunlop brakes (ATEs were an option: ATE calipers and ATE adapter plates on Dunlop uprights).

For the year 1967 963 cars were made and there were three versions of the car in 1967 for GTV 1600 RHD

Version 1: Made ~400 cars from January 67 to ~May 67: Low arch cars with Dunlop brakes (ATEs were an option).
Version 2: Made ~263 cars from ~June 67 to ~October 67: Low arch cars with ATEs brakes as standard; ATE calipers and ATE adapter plates on Dunlop uprights).
Version 3: Made 300 cars from ~November 67 to ~December 67: High arch cars with ATEs as standard;

So the rarest step nose car is a 1967: version 2
Sprint GTV RHD from Jan 1966 to Dec 1966 772
Version 1: Sprint GTV RHD from Jan 1967 to ~May 1967 ~400
Version 2: Sprint GTV RHD from ~June 1967 to ~Oct 1967 ~263
Version 3: Sprint GTV RHD from ~Oct 1967 to ~Dec 1967 300
As for the desirability of a RHD GTV well, my preference would be version 1 and 2.
Cheers Steve
This explains the astronomical outlier prices Aus is seeing for GTV's of all stripes - RHD limited numbers. Same in UK??
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post #88 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-19-2018, 02:21 PM
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Correct me where I am off base here. All prices assume excellent condition unless otherwise stated.

GTAm $100,000-250,000 depending on pedigree
GTC, GTA $100,000-150,000
GTA/GTAm tribute $60-100,000
Stepnose top condition $30,000-40,000
GTV top condition $25,000-35,000
GT/GTV Race prepped $25,000-50,000
GTV Driver $10,000-20,000
GTV project $0-4,000

I think this is a fair assessment of where the market has been on these cars over the last few years. Where your particular car falls on this list and how much you need to spend to get it to top condition will determine your return on investment.

You can easy spend $20k to get a driver to top condition either original original or mostly original with choice performance upgrades; easily.

I think the GTAm tribute is probably the best ROI for our cars. And a clean driver, bought right, is the best bang for your buck.

By the way the GTV that sold at Monterey last year for $44k is an outlier as far as I am concerned and none of us should be using that as the bench mark for our cars.

I love me GTV!! Even go so far as to say I want to build another...
All prices assume you are just about to take delivery of a car December 2018 and how much I would expect to pay for an excellent condition, with all factory parts/options.

GTAm $200,000-450,000 depending on pedigree and condition/options, usually museum cars never driven.
GTAm new build to FIA specs $80-140,000 prices stagnant as limited race opportunities/usability.
GTA 1750 (No flairs) all alloy panels smooth nose one off rarity the car the factory may have built but ran out of alloy bodies. FIA specs mechanical as per 1300 GTA but with with 4 valve 1750 Autodelta head and 1750/2L engine. All GTA options: $450,000-650,000.
GTC, $120,000-130,000 never homoligated or raced so prices stagnant.
GTA 1600 $400,000-750,000 depending on pedigree and condition/options, usually museum cars never driven. Cost of restoration is high mechanical and body, probably not a buy fix and sell and make money proposition.
GTA 1300 $250,000-450,000 depending on pedigree and condition/options, usually museum cars never driven. Cost of restoration high mechanical and body.
GTA 1600 FIA/factory specs replica, all alloy panels to $200,000-450,000 good usability and can be race in US/Europe. Even RHD cars raced in the US, so for RHD cars with all alloy panels to FIA/factory specs $300,000-600,000. These replica cars are more usable with modern alloys for wheels, LSD, new GTA replica cylinder heads and internals (pistons/cranks) for engines, cars can go for another 50 to 100 + years.
GTA 1300 replica all alloy panels to FIA specs $100,000-200,000 good usability (but can not be race in the pre 65 class) The 1600 GTA replica/clone pre 65 would be a first choice for racing, so 1300 GTA replicas are not built.

Stepnose 1600 Steel cars top condition restored cars
LHD GT 1963 $90,000-110,000
LHD GT 1964 $90,000-110,000
LHD GT 1965 $100,000-120,000
LHD GT 1966 $100,000-120,000
LHD GTV 1966 $110,000-130,000
LHD GTV 1967 Version 1: $110,000-130,000
LHD GTV 1967 Version 2: $140,000-150,000
LHD GTV 1967 Version 3: $90,000-110,000
LHD GTV 1968 $90,000-110,000
RHD GT 1963 $110,000-140,000
RHD GT 1964 $110,000-140,000
RHD GT 1965 $110,000-140,000
RHD GT 1966 $110,000-140,000
RHD GTV 1966 $130,000-160,000
RHD GTV 1967 Version 1: $140,000-170,000
RHD GTV 1967 Version 2: $160,000-200,000
RHD GTV 1967 Version 3: $100,000-110,000
RHD GTV 1968 $100,000-110,000

Stepnose 1300 GTj Steel cars top condition restored cars:
These cars don't tend to be restored, but are the source for $100k plus make overs to modernise them with new engines and trick bits, usually refereed to as 'outlaw' cars. I have seen good GTj pulled down and all 1300 parts on sold to pay for the make over, as per market forces. These prices are on the rise due to diminishing supply of cars presenting in standard format.
LHD GTj 1966 $50,000-60,000
LHD GTj 1967 $55,000-65,000
LHD GTj 1968 $60,000-70,000
LHD GTj 1969 $45,000-50,000
LHD GTj 1970 $45,000-50,000
RHD GTj 1966 $60,000-70,000
RHD GTj 1967 $65,000-75,000
RHD GTj 1968 $70,000-80,000
RHD GTj 1969 $55,000-60,000
RHD GTj 1970 $55,000-60,000

1750 GTV Steel cars top condition restored cars. These prices are on the rise due to diminishing supply of cars presenting in standard format, due to need of 'outlaw' car make overs.
LHD GTV 1967 $55,000-65,000
LHD GTV 1968 $70,000-80,000
LHD GTV 1969 $110,000-120,000
LHD GTV 1970 $70,000-80,000
LHD GTV 1971 $70,000-80,000
RHD GTV 1967 $65,000-75,000
RHD GTV 1968 $90,000-100,000
RHD GTV 1969 $130,000-150,000
RHD GTV 1970 $90,000-110,000
RHD GTV 1971 $90,000-110,000

My best picks for steel cars RHD in fully restored format
1. RHD GTV 1600 1967 Version 2: $160,000-200,000 (~270 cars) low arches, ATE brakes, optioned with Bertone De Luxe leather interior.
2. RHD GTV 1600 1967 Version 1: $140,000-170,000 (~400 cars) low arches, Dunlop brakes optioned with Bertone De Luxe leather interior.
3. RHD GTV 1600 1966 $130,000-160,000 (~770 cars) Low arches, Dunlop brakes optioned with Bertone De Luxe leather interior.
4. RHD GTV 1750 1969 $130,000-150,000 (~1400 cars) optioned with Bertone De Luxe leather interior.
5. RHD GT 1600 1963-66 $110,000-130,000 (~2000) Low arches, Dunlop brakes
6. RHD GTV 1600 1967 Version 3: $100,000-110,000 (~300 cars)[high arches, ATE brakes]

My best picks for steel cars LHD in fully restored format
1. LHD GTV 1600 1967 Version 2: $140,000-150,000 low arches, ATE brakes
2. LHD GTV 1600 1967 Version 1: $110,000-130,000 Low arches, Dunlop brakes
3. LHD GTV 1600 1966 $110,000-130,000 Low arches, Dunlop brakes
4. LHD GTV 1750 1969 $110,000-120,000 high arches, ATE brakes
5 LHD GT 1600 1965 $100,000-120,000 Low arches, Dunlop brakes

My best picks for replica/FIA cars which can be raced internationally today as per 1965 FIA Specs/ format, (except Australia!)
RHD GTA 1600 replica all alloy panels to FIA specs. $300,000-600,000 [dependent on rarity of donor car RHD car starting with RHD GTV 1600 66 Low arches, Dunlop brakes or RHD GT 1600 1963-66 or RHD GTV 1600 1967 Version 1]
LHD GTA 1600 replica all alloy panels to FIA specs $200,000-450,000.

Rarity/outlaw cars
GTA-1750 (No flairs) all alloy panels smooth nose one off rarity. All period FIA GTA and some GTAM options: weight 700kg $450,000-$650,000, an academic exercise, or will some one make one?
GTAm tribute $80-140,000 not fully to FIA specs.
GTJ 1300 stepnose steel shell with modern upgrade: top of the range carbon fibre panels and non period performance engines. Built to outlaw specification GTA tribute. weight 835kg $90,000 to $150,000
GTV 1300, 1600, 1750 or 2L smooth nose steel shell with modern upgrade: top of the range carbon fibre panels and non period performance engines. Built to outlaw specification.
~900kg $80,000 to $140,000
Some of the tribute and outlaw cars probably cost you more to make than what you would get in the market if you sold it. I am referring to what you would get in the market if you sold it today, as opposed to your actual spend.
The number of 105 cars made was low in some cases i.e. RHD, so I have implied previously the survival rates are also low based on the number of 105 cars in the Alfa Romeo 105 register lists. Of course there may be more cars than those list in the register, how many more who knows? probably not many more.
There are no $44k outliers of 2012 left today !
Cheers Steve
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Last edited by Steve105; 12-23-2018 at 04:44 AM.
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post #89 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-19-2018, 02:41 PM
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Not commenting on the exotics as they are out of my pay grade, but for the 105's, US LHD, are not that high as borne out by recent BAT and other sale rices. But then few are "#5 Naitonal Concourse" excellent cars also. Prices for good/very good cars seem to be about 50-60% of those numbers though some try to pump the market higher and there are always outliers. I do know that Euro prices and AUS are much higher, I don't follow UK but I assume the same there with RHD. Just my observations.

PS: at that price differential it makes sense to ship good US 105 GT (and 115's) cars overseas and buff and flip then, RHD issues notwithstanding.
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post #90 of 131 (permalink) Old 12-19-2018, 04:34 PM
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PS: at that price differential it makes sense to ship good US 105 GT (and 115's) cars overseas and buff and flip then, RHD issues notwithstanding.
Good idea but cars of the period of the 105's are deemed to contain asbestos which means AUS Govt wants certification the car has been cleaned of any asbestos, before it is loaded onto ship for Australia.
So a barrier to entry, as can be a costly job to rid car of asbestos $10-20k. So I don't see any LHD or any other 105's coming into AUS any time soon.
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