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The end?

34K views 250 replies 52 participants last post by  Del 
#1 ·
#2 ·
Moving Alfa Romeo up into the Maserati market with the Guilia was always, IMO, risky and made them another over priced brand.

The Giulietta is what they shiuld be building, a RWD version if necessary. The Guilia is like a 2600 ...

Saying that if I won Lotto, I'd probably buy a 4 cylinder Stelvio. I like the looks over the Guilia, and could accept the auto only option in a SUV.
Pete
 
#6 ·
Agree. While I'm sure the facts in the Forbes article are correct, it fails to mention that most European automakers are struggling right now.

onethumb said:
Fiat/Alfa dealers are clearly out of their league.
Boy, that's for sure. Perhaps having Alfa dealers be independent of Chrysler, Jeep, Ram, Maserati, etc. etc. wasn't such a great idea. Sort of like having Mini be independent of BMW. Trying to run a dealership with just one or two models has to be tough.
 
#4 ·
Sad, but not surprising. It's like Alfa is snake-bit.
 
#5 ·
Forbes writes an anti-Alfa article every few months, so I'm not surprised.

They sold nearly 24k units in the US last year. That's almost 4x their best year ever in the US market.

It takes time to build brand awareness. I'm starting to see Alfas much more frequently--there is a network effect to branding: as people see them on the road they start to consider them.

I also don't think they overlap with Maserati at all. Maserati is an "old man" car. The 4C, Giulia and Stelvio are youthful and energetic--clean lines and good visibility. The new Maseratis are uninspiring vaults covered in expensive leather with big cushy seats. Like a Buick, but Italian.

The biggest issues as I see them are 1) Lack of models in the US and 2) Weak dealers.

They need a full-size SUV, badly. A full size car and GT would be key too.

If they could shrink the Giulia platform and use it for an A2/2-series type car, that would help too, along with a mini-SUV to go with that.

And cover your ears, but they should have an all-electric version of the Stelvio. Jag and Audi are doing it, and those things are sold out before they even hit the showrooms.

Bottom line is that, when you go into an Audi or BMW dealership, there are at least 4-5 car options to look at. Alfa needs to get there, and fast. Right now they are a one-trick pony.

Speaking of dealers. Ugh. People seem to be having a much better experience with the co-branded Maserati/Ferrari dealers. But the Fiat/Alfa dealers are clearly out of their league. Maybe not all---but this is my experience. Terrible supply of spares doesn't help either--I don't understand how it takes so long to get parts in a US warehouse. Somehow, the experience of Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge hasn't bled through. It's the same company, it should be the same **** supply chain!

Having said all that, I look at where Jag was a few years ago, and they were in much worse shape. Now they are doing quite well. Sales are off a little this year, but that's to be expected. But they need new product in 2020, and they need to do a better job demanding dealers give a luxury experience.

So to me, it's far from the end. Just growing pains. Hopefully the new leadership will fix it. Manley worked miracles when he was in charge of Jeep, so maybe his leadership will help Alfa now as well.
 
#234 ·
Forbes writes an anti-Alfa article every few months, so I'm not surprised.

They sold nearly 24k units in the US last year. That's almost 4x their best year ever in the US market.

It takes time to build brand awareness. I'm starting to see Alfas much more frequently--there is a network effect to branding: as people see them on the road they start to consider them.

I also don't think they overlap with Maserati at all. Maserati is an "old man" car. The 4C, Giulia and Stelvio are youthful and energetic--clean lines and good visibility. The new Maseratis are uninspiring vaults covered in expensive leather with big cushy seats. Like a Buick, but Italian.

The biggest issues as I see them are 1) Lack of models in the US and 2) Weak dealers.

They need a full-size SUV, badly. A full size car and GT would be key too.

If they could shrink the Giulia platform and use it for an A2/2-series type car, that would help too, along with a mini-SUV to go with that.

And cover your ears, but they should have an all-electric version of the Stelvio. Jag and Audi are doing it, and those things are sold out before they even hit the showrooms.

Bottom line is that, when you go into an Audi or BMW dealership, there are at least 4-5 car options to look at. Alfa needs to get there, and fast. Right now they are a one-trick pony.

Speaking of dealers. Ugh. People seem to be having a much better experience with the co-branded Maserati/Ferrari dealers. But the Fiat/Alfa dealers are clearly out of their league. Maybe not all---but this is my experience. Terrible supply of spares doesn't help either--I don't understand how it takes so long to get parts in a US warehouse. Somehow, the experience of Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge hasn't bled through. It's the same company, it should be the same **** supply chain!

Having said all that, I look at where Jag was a few years ago, and they were in much worse shape. Now they are doing quite well. Sales are off a little this year, but that's to be expected. But they need new product in 2020, and they need to do a better job demanding dealers give a luxury experience.

So to me, it's far from the end. Just growing pains. Hopefully the new leadership will fix it. Manley worked miracles when he was in charge of Jeep, so maybe his leadership will help Alfa now as well.
I agree on the dealership set up and the dealer experience... If you're looking to sell to an upmarket than you need to pamper them.... They aren't spending that kind of money and receiving Chrysler service
 
#7 ·
There aren't many dealers to choose from and for those of us not living in a large metro area a lengthy drive is in order. For me to look at a new Giulia it's a 240 mile round trip. That won't bother a hard core car guy but for a more casual but interested potential buyer that's likely a turn-off.

BMW, Benz,Audi, and VW don't have a dealer any closer but they do have brand awareness and a track record in the U.S.

I agree with onethumb about Forbes. It seems that both the automotive press and business journals have been rooting for Alfa to fail.
 
#8 ·
I do wonder if the sales have slumped because of the ridiculous automatic only thing. You're not an Alfisti/a if you accept that, and yeah I know they are hell bent on dropping the old faithful buyers and creating a new market ... but the easiest way to do that would have been to close the doors and just sell Toyotas.


Even my uncle who is into Holden and HSV only bought an automatic ute because they are not making any more and it was only one he could purchase, and he wanted the last ever v8 ute. Personally I'd have kept the previous manual one ...
Pete
 
#9 ·
In Italy, Lancia sold more cars than Alfa through June...Lancia has only one model, and it's a rebranded Fiat subcompact. Granted, Lancia is heavy on incentives...

That being said, I agree that Alfa has to keep up the advertising and come out with some lower priced models. (A GTI killer would be fun!). The manual transmission might help sell a couple thousand more cars, but ultimately people in America don't want manual transmissions it seems....and few of them even know how to drive them.
 
#54 ·
In Italy, Lancia sold more cars than Alfa through June...Lancia has only one model, and it's a rebranded Fiat subcompact. Granted, Lancia is heavy on incentives...
It would help if Alfa actually had a dog in the small car fight but the Mito was killed off in 2018 so they don't. Italians traditionally buy more small cars for tax reasons so comparing Lancia and Alfa sales in Italy is "apples and oranges"
 
#10 ·
"But ultimately people in America don't want manual transmissions it seems....and few of them even know how to drive them."

Y'all probably heard the joke that manual transmissions are the "millennial anti-theft device.">:)
 
#11 ·
Y'all probably heard the joke that manual transmissions are the "millennial anti-theft device.">:)
They are. I don't know if I'm old (or young?) enough to qualify as a millenial - I never thought of myself as one. But I can tell you that those younger than me (say, between 18 and 30) aren't even interested in driving. Probably because modern cars have become boring after the nerds took over with their TV screens and lane assist and all that.
 
#12 ·
Jaguar is in trouble recently mainly because of collapse of its Chinese market. I don't think Alfa was ever in that market.

European makers are having trouble because of the dieselgate scandals which are damaging sales because of the very mixed messages EU governments are emitting to consumers of expensive diesel powered cars.

The sedan market is collapsing in western industrial countries for reasons unrelated to informed and rational consumers. Buyers want SUV and crossover type vehicles. Makes no sense but then car buying isn't based on rational decision making.

Then there's the whole "millennial effect" coming at us alarmingly rapidly. Consumer demand for things expensive like cars and big houses is about to drop off a cliff and nobody seems ready for it. Niche cars like Alfa may do surprisingly well though as long as nobody starts chasing very large volumes of sales.

We live in interesting times. Not necessarily good times but certainly interesting.
 
#13 ·
I have been an Alfa owner since 1968 and have seen Alfa come and go from the US market. I think that they have a much better car compared to the past and Fiat is putting more money into Alfa than in the past. I also agree that the world car market is having problems but, have been told that more cars are being leased then being purchased due to high prices. I also know that gasoline powered cars will be phased out in the future and I will never convert to an electric car. I plan to buy a new Giulia QV and would like to purchase a coupe if possible.
 
#14 ·
My son, Trey, called me from OKC, this afternoon and told me that Oklahoma's only Alfa dealer, Alfa Romeo of Edmond, has discontinued selling Alfas with the remaining four units having been sold to a dealer in Dallas.

They will continue to service Alfas through the end of August; after that, your're on your own.

I wonder how many U.S. Alfa dealers have "closed" in the last couple of years?

Ray
 
#18 ·
Well, yeah; NJ. You guys got all Soprano money up in Jersey.

In OK, you gotta own oil wells or spend $1,000,000 in one of our fabulous casinos in order to win $50,000!

Oh, wait. Don't you guys have few of those, as well?
 
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#19 ·
I think there's roughly the same amount of dealers in NJ for Jaguar as there are for Alfa. A quick look on the Jaguar website shows 22 dealers within a 100 mile radius of NYC (an area that includes Philly, Allentown, virtually all of NJ, Long Island, the Hudson Valley, and most of CT. There are 17 Alfa dealers in about the same radius. That's not a huge difference. I imagine the distribution is similar in the rest of the country (with Jaguar having a few more overall).

But let's keep in mind, Jaguar outsold Alfa by about only 8k cars in the entire year 2018 (about 30k cars vs. 24k for Alfa). Volvo, on the other hand, convinced almost 100,000 people to buy one of their cars...they have about 300 dealerships in the USA. Alfa has (or at least had) about 90 dealers in the USA. I can't find figures for Jaguar, but I assume they are somewhere more than Alfa, but fewer than Volvo.
 
#20 ·
All good points.

I hope that the expansion of the lineup will help. Jag, Volvo, nearly every other carmaker in this segment have 2-4x as many models to choose from.

That said, I doubt the executives at FCA went into this thinking it would be a 2 year drive and then "boom" 200k yearly sales. At least I hope not, as that sort of thinking devalues the concept of branding they rely on so much with the other franchises.

I work with a lot of startups, and the biggest reason I see them go under is that they underestimate the amount of time it will take to become profitable. Hopefully FCA is in this for the long run, and I do think they are.

Having said all that, I'm completely in love with the new mid-engine 'Vette. Another iconic car that has left behind the manual transmission. I doubt it will hurt them either, as I understand the 2020 allocation has already been sold. My guess is 30k units?

Alfa, I hope you are paying attention! A $250k 8C is nice but responsibly priced sports cars still sell well!
 
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#22 ·
This dealership question is not just about raw numbers, where they are and how they present is just as critical. There was another thread about our local dealership closing recently, but I’ll reiterate that within 5 miles of here we have what claim to be the country’s largest Mercedes and the country’s largest BMW dealer. We have Ferrari, Maserati, hell we even have a Pagani shop. The local Land Rover / Jag dealer is undergoing a complete rebuild - and Aston has a fancy new showroom on PCH with 20+ new cars always sitting outside.

The nearest Alfa dealer? 20 miles away. Now you may say that’s not much, and personally I agree. But most people operate in a 5 mile or so radius from their home or work.

If FCA was really investing in the brand they’d forget the large billboards at the LA Auto show and put small, quality shops into middle to high income areas and work the places hard. Local matters, the right local matters even more. Maybe Alfa is not targeted at the real high end market but it seems to me that Alfa buyers still want to feel special, not an afterthought.
 
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#23 ·
The Corvette is getting rid of the manual transmission? I actually like the current Corvette (granted, I've not driven it). I have a GTI now (manual of course) and I"m getting an itch to get something new and was thinking Fiat 124 Spider. But that car isn't very usable in the winter being a convertible. Maybe one of the 2019 base model Corvettes with a stick shift will go on the list.*

*Corvette is probably a poorer choice for winter, but who cares, it's a Vette!
 
#27 ·
Off-topic, but yes, you'll be able to pick up a c7 for a song. The local dealer is listing $10-12k off all models, so I expect you could get that even higher, maybe $15k? That's a lot of car for mid $40's (or mid $50's for a Z51, which is a must-have option in my mind). They all come with a removable hardtop that fits in the trunk, so you get the convertible experience without the headaches. I love my ZR-1 for that reason--sunshine when you want it, normal car when you don't.
 
#24 · (Edited)
In my town Alfa is handled by the Ferrari/Maserati dealer which makes quite a lot of sense. The Alfa Romeo brand has historically occupied the upper end of the market occupied by any volume manufacturer and until the FIAT Group takeover offered more advanced product at higher prices than the big volume makers. Up to the 1980's this remained the case: an Alfa was a much more sophisticated upmarket product than a Ford. Consequently, they were higher priced. When Alfa tried to go down market even slightly they suffered.

Marchionne understood this. The Alfa brand predates the Ferrari and Maserati road car brands. Pre WW II Alfa had no product for the market it now sells into. Even after that war Alfa refused to descend into the volume market for cheap cars. The grinding of its margins meant many current Alfa aficionados were able to buy relatively sophisticated cars for not much more money than ordinary cars. The end result was financial ruin for Alfa.

To stay profitable Alfa must avoid the high volume low margin market segment and concentrate on its historical market segment. The Giulia is such a car as is the Stelvio in that bizarrely popular segment. If you want a car that stands out both technically and as an aesthetic joy then an Alfa is one of a very few affordable choices for you.

Remember that Porsche survived and returned to profitability only by first building a "cheap" sportscar, still expensive but much cheaper than their 911, followed by insanely popular SUVs. Porsche sells much more than half its total product line as SUV's and big sedans.

Maserati can occupy the segment above Alfa for much the same reaseon although for anyone who really knows Maserati's history this is just plain wrong. Maserati built racing cars and only very grudgingly put those racing engines into road cars. Ferrari deliberately traded on its racing brand name by building road cars to support that racing program. There became very tenuous connection between the racing engines and the road car engines. Maserati made zero effort to do the same. If you wanted a road going Maserati you bought a barely detuned racer. They went broke using that business model.

The magic of the Giulia, making it unique in its market imho, is you really can take your road car to the track, beat on it hard, and then drive your wife out to dinner after a cool down lap (for the car, not your wife, although if you're lucky enough you might get both).
 
#25 ·
@Michael Smith is right. Alfa's were known as a "rich man's car" in Italy until the 1980's. The original Giulia usually sold for about 1.500.000 Lire or more (at a time when most Italians barely made 1.000.000 in a year!), and were definitely more upmarket than Fiat (but on about the same level as Lancia, back in the day). Unfortunately, they weren't terribly profitable for long and, let's remember, were supported by IRI (read: the Italian government) until 1987 when Fiat bought them. This did allow them to make great cars that didn't compromise on engineering (e.g. Alfetta), but also led to disasters (e.g. the Alfasud and the Pomigliano d'Arco factory with poorly trained workers; buying Soviet steel which then rusted..). And, their margins were tight. A car like the original Alfetta probably should have cost 30% more in order to make money for Alfa, but then it would have sold much less than it did.
 
#26 ·
The Wife and I are in the market for a Giulia/Stelvio, and although the closest Alfa dealer is 100 miles away, they have been great to work with, they just have a small inventory. They are an Alfa/Maserati dealer. We went to a big Alfa dealer about 200 miles away and had a really poor experience, bait and switch and that sort of thing, and they were an Alfa/Fiat/Jeep dealer.

A big part of it might just be price point, the good dealer has been selling used Giulia in a matter of days vs. the new ones sitting on his lot for a while (months). I looked at a used Lusso there and loved it, but much like a Milano, I need one without a sunroof, but he had it sold a few days later, he sent me a picture of a used black one he had on the way, just not the right color, but that also sold in a few days.

You can't have used ones without selling new ones first, but used Giulias seemed to be a good deal and people are noticing.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Bro in law in El Paso (where they just had a mass shooting at a local mall, with fatalities, 20, sigh, I will not make a comment) had earlier this year bought one of the 750 hp Vettes, complete with the spacy looking wing on the back, etc. Fortunately he does know how to drive it, as he has won SCCA autocrossing regional championships in his previous Vettes. Alas, he is now coming down with Parkinson's, so he had to buy an automatic tranny for the first time. Doesn't think he can properly use the manual anymore. I'm sure it will be his last. He also has a DD Chevy (Holden) SS, also with automatic. His wife gets the upscale Malibu, lol.
 
#33 · (Edited)
Can't be any worse than the continual stop and go on Seattle's few highways/arterials. In fact, Seattle is worse, IMO, having driven both recently.

The hassle of driving with an manual in stop and go traffic has been offset in my driving by the fun I can have when not on those particular roads. It's a trade off to be sure. Everyone desires a different level of ease and comfort. Nothing holier than thou involved, just a different preference, perhaps biased by the admittedly lousy lower market automatic equipped rentals we have always had to have, what we could afford, on our trips. The new Giulia we test drove did go like stink with the automatic, and admittedly would make stop and go driving simpler, less involved. Just put it into D and step on the gas when needed.

And, certainly, the mix of DD stop and go and other road driving I did certainly didn't wear the clutch out quickly, it lasting 189k miles in the 91S DD. Oh, and my left leg still works well, lol, the clutch pedal force not being nearly as heavy as the older American cars we all used to drive and hate.

As I mentioned previously, that red Giulia Quad I saw parked next to my 91S recently, and talking with the driver, sure did look interesting. And a blast to drive I'm sure.

As for sales of the Giulia and Stelvio in the US at least, it certainly doesn't help that CU still rates them as predicted pretty darn unreliable, based on their own prejudiced opinions.
 
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