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post #106 of 135 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 08:05 AM
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MORE TESLA MODEL 3S THAN ALFA ROMEOS HAVE BEEN SOLD IN EUROPE



https://drivetribe.com/p/more-tesla-...source=organic

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post #107 of 135 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 10:34 AM
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MORE TESLA MODEL 3S THAN ALFA ROMEOS HAVE BEEN SOLD IN EUROPE



https://drivetribe.com/p/more-tesla-...source=organic
It's the future. No engine to maintain. I drove a model S the other day. Pretty amazing. Fast as ****!


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post #108 of 135 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 11:15 AM
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It's the future. No engine to maintain. I drove a model S the other day. Pretty amazing. Fast as ****!
Yep
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156 Series 1 v6 ... and remember it's all just opinions
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post #109 of 135 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ARwrench View Post
MORE TESLA MODEL 3S THAN ALFA ROMEOS HAVE BEEN SOLD IN EUROPE

And... it matters not to me. Maintenance and endless charging of those Teslas will not be something I have to bother with.

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post #110 of 135 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 12:33 PM
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Electric vehicles cannot be the future. The power generation requirements for that to happen are technically and economically insurmountable.

For "back of the envelope" calculations* just compare the energy stored in the average ICE powered vehicle's fuel tank to the same stored in an EV onboard battery. Then multiply that by the number of ICE powered vehicles you intend to replace and convert that to generating capacity and transmission.

No matter how you manipulate those numbers there wil be no answer that can be implemented.

I M P O S S I B L E.


* you will need to download the PDF file from here:

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/...ear-impossible

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post #111 of 135 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 07:33 PM
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Electric vehicles cannot be the future. The power generation requirements for that to happen are technically and economically insurmountable.

For "back of the envelope" calculations* just compare the energy stored in the average ICE powered vehicle's fuel tank to the same stored in an EV onboard battery. Then multiply that by the number of ICE powered vehicles you intend to replace and convert that to generating capacity and transmission.

No matter how you manipulate those numbers there wil be no answer that can be implemented.

I M P O S S I B L E.


* you will need to download the PDF file from here:

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/...ear-impossible

It is the future. You're not looking at the bigger picture here you're still riding on the oil gravy train mentality. Once all manufacturers move to Electric there will be the progression to another fuel type. Solar Hydrogen or whatever. It's going to overlap, ICE vehicles will move on to recycling and Battery will become the new, then there will be an overlap of other alternative fuels that will come to the market as it will be a race who can come up with the next best fuel. This will be similar to and maybe parallel the demise of Capitalism.

If the plans for most cities to move to more Solar and wind power electric will be even more clean. No reliance on coal.

The Manhattan Institute is know as being biased to the right. I am not interested in a neoconservative "paper". They keep a foot in the libertarian camp as well, mainly through work with the network of laissez-faire think tanks funded by Koch Industries

Everything I have studied and read over the past 6 years or more (2 1/2 years in a Sustainability Master's Program) has said the opposite of this.


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post #112 of 135 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 07:51 PM
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Neither science nor engineering is left or right. Apolitical. Numbers are numbers. I will say that left leaning politicos tend to be more sceptical about the objectivity of science, engineering and mathematics. Numbers do not lie. Facts remain facts despite any form of political persuasion.

There is no other " fuel source". Hydrogen and so on are energy storage systems as for batteries. The energy has to be captured somehow in order to manufacture these "alternative fuels" all of which are misnamed.

Biofuels would work as a method of storing solar energy. Most require diversion of food production to create the biofuel. There is potential to convert waste into heat and then electricity.

You have geothermal which extracts heat energy from subsurface, cooling the planet below ground. You have hydro electricity which utilizes solar energy lifting water from sea level to some elevation where it is recovered as the water flows back down to sea level. You have direct solar capture either light or heat. You have nuclear power currently used to generate heat which is converted to electricity.

The underlying problem is currently insurmountable. Fossil fuels are ancient solar energy stored at very high density. Biofuels are fossil fuels not going through that metamorphosis and convert current solar energy to portable energy. All the other "alternative fuels" rely on generating electricity. That requires staggering amounts of new generation infrastructure. Truly staggering. Ain't happening.
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post #113 of 135 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 08:06 PM
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You know, Michael, you are sometimes somewhat of a 'downer/naysayer' person, lol. All I'll say is that the centuries are full of statements by well meaning people saying, "it's impossible or nothing new to know" but later, scientific inquiry/ingenuity, perceptive invention, and even serendipity end up sometimes making it possible, one way or another.

To be sure, time will tell, but I for one am always hesitant to always say "it's impossible", since so many otherwise well educated people have ended up getting it wrong.
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post #114 of 135 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 08:15 PM
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Neither science nor engineering is left or right.
That's not what I am referring to. Papers and studies can be funded by folks who want a specific outcome to influence in a political way and if you dig deeper The Manhattan Institute is one of those. Science is Science. But science papers can be manipulated. Was that paper peer reviewed? Doubt it. Although they mention Bill McKibben, who I have met and talked with extensively a few times mostly about divestment from fossil fuels, I am not sure their motive here. I have also talked with Naomi Klein with Bill McKibbens about all of this and a few others.

I was born into a science family, I do not deny numbers and facts. I agree but it's how it is presented and who presents it is typically the issue.

There are many fuel alternatives already out there, problem is oil lobbying. If Tesla is out selling competitors with ICE or Hybrids or electric, those manufacturers will need to step up and offer what Tesla is offering. If Tesla moves to a new technology, others will follow suite. This will be the progression of a better fuel and our path towards true zero emissions.

I think Biofuel could be a stellar way of using up waste from food which produces huge amounts of carbon dioxide, 3.3 Billion tons of CO2 globally. That food waste could be used for fuel. In Italy they do this. When I lived in Sienna Italy, they have a special pick up on Tuesday's for food leftovers which they use to make Bio-diesel.

"An Exercise in Magical Thinking" this just threw this article for me. Red flags! You have to be dense to not see where this article is headed.

To the report itself, it's main argument is that '"some people" are saying energy can evolve in the way that computing and communications have under Moore's Law and software innovation, therefore since energy can't evolve that fast we should just keep using fossil fuel.' That is a "straw man" argument.

The intent behind the analysis in the article is to preserve the fossil fuel business model, plain and simple So the Manhattan Institute and their cronies are arguing that instead of writing down the assets of fossils in the ground, pipelines, refineries and infrastructure, that everyone else should write down their real estate assets. Their other argument is that fossil fuels are cheap and renewables are expensive.

If you look at the energy content of oil, it's priced at about $.03 US/ kWh at $50/barrel wholesale, not including externalities: health and military costs, saying nothing about the cost of climate change. Current oil price is $60-80. So fossil fuels even without pricing in externalities are not cheap compared to renewables.

We already have a problem with weather disaster costs, paid for by the federal government and private insurance companies. Very expensive real estate will need to eventually be written off, and there will be increasing loss of life. Florida is an example. Seawalls and even Netherlands-style levees are not going to help if you can't get drinking water and dispose of sewage https://www.climatecentral.org/news/...-south-florida. Even fossil fuel central, Houston had terrible flooding in 2017. New York and New Jersey are revising flood maps. Nebraska is experiencing it now. The floods in Venice this year provide a graphic example of the future: https://www.euronews.com/video/2019/...istoric-centre

The military studies climate induced conflicts. One on the horizon is Bangladesh which is primarily Islamic and surrounded by primarily Hindu India and primarily Buddhist Burma-Myanmar. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/...toryId=9162438.

It is within our capability to phase out fossil fuels. If the "magical thinking" of carbon capture and sequestration happens, all the better.

The Department of Energy NREL has innumerable studies of exactly how we can increase renewables using current technology. The most inexpensive energy source is efficiency, which is a huge job generator for residential retrofits.

Tesla will change everything. Watch and see.
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post #115 of 135 (permalink) Old 08-12-2019, 08:40 AM
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You know, Michael, you are sometimes somewhat of a 'downer/naysayer' person, lol. All I'll say is that the centuries are full of statements by well meaning people saying, "it's impossible or nothing new to know" but later, scientific inquiry/ingenuity, perceptive invention, and even serendipity end up sometimes making it possible, one way or another.

To be sure, time will tell, but I for one am always hesitant to always say "it's impossible", since so many otherwise well educated people have ended up getting it wrong.
The inspiration of genius is an illusion caused by our perceptions of time.

Each time I examine some apparently brilliant inspiration I find it is nothing of the sort. Take evolution for example, a brilliant insight revealed to the world in 1859. Not only did two people concurrently discover this phenomenon, Darwin had most of it figured out 20 years before that, or more. Then we find out that his grandfather probably had it figured out in the previous century.

Flight took at least 500 years to figure out, and possibly a millennium if the myth of Icarus has any basis in fact. Steam power? 150 years not counting Heron's device. And so on.

"Moores Law" has been compared to battery storage efficiency without any foundation, leaving aside the fact that Moores Law isn't anything more than a lucky prediction which is just now petering out.

Autonomous driving isn't even a theory yet.

There's a difference between optimism about what may be possible, a cure for cancer perhaps, and what is impossible based on what science tells us today. EV are certainly possible, obviously. Replacing fossil fuels with "alternative fuels" is clearly impossible based on any accumulation of knowledge we have today or can conceive of ever having.

So, have no fear that the ICE is going away anytime soon.

Just btw, there is no "oil industry model" dominating the world's energy supply systems. Consumer demand drives every business enterprise. Business merely responds to that demand. This has always been the case. Innovation may create demand but only because the innovator seeks to do so.

Ask me how women drove the invention of iron and steel, pottery and the power loom. The men who thought they were inventors were actually seeking happy wives.....
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post #116 of 135 (permalink) Old 08-12-2019, 09:02 AM
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Whatever, let's get back on subject.

No, it's not the end of Alfa. Yet...


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post #117 of 135 (permalink) Old 08-12-2019, 11:01 AM
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Whatever, let's get back on subject.

No, it's not the end of Alfa. Yet...
I agree. And Jason, I hope your capitalistic enterprise is doing well!

Just kidding.. no offense meant, my friend.
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post #118 of 135 (permalink) Old 08-12-2019, 12:42 PM
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I agree. And Jason, I hope your capitalistic enterprise is doing well!

Just kidding.. no offense meant, my friend.
Haha. Have to work within the system to get out of it. Someday maybe!
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post #119 of 135 (permalink) Old 08-13-2019, 05:57 PM
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WSJ reported today that several car makers, GM, VW, etc, are giving up entirely on hybrid cars, concentrating on pure electric as the path to the future. Interesting. No mention of FCA.
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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #120 of 135 (permalink) Old 08-13-2019, 07:00 PM
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I am so glad they made this car. From the 80's 2 Alfetta sedans and one coupe, a GTV-6, 3 164's, and then a 94 164Q -- what a great car.
My 2018 Ti Q2 sport everything (I think) is my first new car (63 yo) and it is like I am Rip Van Winkle. Sure lidar and adaptive cruise control but (electronic suspension) the car turns into a corner so sweetly. I never use the paddle shifters -- the AT is that good. I think it is a good size and a good looking MF to boot.

-Mark
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