The end? - Page 7 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 80Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #91 of 128 (permalink) Old 08-08-2019, 06:31 PM
Registered User
 
AlfaSpiderRick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA-Formerly OC, CA
Posts: 43
Nice to see your Giulia Super & Giulia Quad again, Tad!
~Rick

Current: '78 Spider Veloce-250K miles-restored. Previous: '74 Spider (Killed by a Toyota). Way previous: Fiat 124, 1500 & 1200 Spiders.
AlfaSpiderRick is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 128 (permalink) Old 08-08-2019, 06:50 PM
Junior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Pedroplaya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 19
Garage
the Alfa Dealer in my town didn't even get to install the permanent sign. they closed in a matter of months.

Pedro Playa
'73 GTV
Pedroplaya is offline  
post #93 of 128 (permalink) Old 08-08-2019, 07:09 PM
Registered User
 
Raimondo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 1,217
Garage
After posting (#15) about the closing of the Alfa store in Edmond, OK, I spoke with son again and he said that the sales manager said he lost money on every Giulia he sold due to battery problems.

Trey said that the guy told him that people buying Alfas today aren't Alfa people, most are "Look as my fancy Italian car" people who just don't drive them very often.

I know Trey wasn't making it up because he doesn't read car mags or blogs enough to pick up on this. He just likes how they look and remembers out beloved '88 Milano Verde. He and his brothers still talk ab out how the engine sounded when it would be singing so sweet. Best sounding engine ever

Oklahoma SNO Alfa Chapter Director
'64/66 Giulia Spider finally back in the garage and painted
'75 Olandase Blu Alfetta Sedan 2.0 & '88 Red Milano Verde; both long gone and dearly missed
Raimondo is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #94 of 128 (permalink) Old 08-08-2019, 07:47 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6
Alfa lost its way a long time ago

Alfa Romeo was, like many other Italian marques, a sportscar with a day-to-day component. Maserati had the Mexico and Quattroporte. Ferrari had a 2+2 or two. Alfa had the Berlinettas.

When Fiat acquired the brand and decided, as it did with Maserati and the Biturbo and Ghibli II, that it should be a mass market nameplate, it completely disenfranchised the car and its history. The 8C Competizione should have been half the price and, if it had been, it would have conquered the world. The 4C is the bizarro version of an automobile. Whoever designed it should be taken out behind the cathedral and shot. Multiple times.

The Giuliettas and Giulias remain classic. Even the Alfetta, as mechanically quirky as it was, is distinctive. But the current models reek of wannabe plainness. The logic seems to be that if Porsche can have an SUV, so can we. It's a virtual plague, and it affects Maserati, Bentley, and even Lamborghini. What's wrong with these people? As soon as you "down market" a vehicle, its hard earned reputation sinks like a stone.
Giuliettalfredo is offline  
post #95 of 128 (permalink) Old 08-08-2019, 08:19 PM
Registered User
 
Gepetto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Queens, New York
Posts: 512
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliettalfredo View Post
The 4C is the bizarro version of an automobile. Whoever designed it should be taken out behind the cathedral and shot. Multiple times.
LOL

Unfortunately, if Fiat had not bought Alfa, Alfa might no longer exist. (Or, perhaps, a some other carmaker might have bought them and completely ruined them even more so than Fiat did). The 4C had so much potential, but ultimately fell flat because it was too niche. If the car was a little more comfortable and a little less of a dedicated track car (in other words, a true GT car), it would have laid a better groundwork for the eventual return of the Giulia (and Stelvio).
alfaloco likes this.
Gepetto is offline  
post #96 of 128 (permalink) Old 08-08-2019, 08:25 PM
Registered User
 
alfaloco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Lexington, Kentucky USA
Posts: 2,121
Garage
The only constant in life is change. I can live with that, although I suppose there are those who cannot.

I for one, will not disrespect the people who have worked tirelessly since the 1980s, for and with Alfa Romeo, to revive the brand and see that it carries forward into the future. Indeed, it has done so. I value and recognize those who have created, labored, worried, argued, campaigned and toiled for Alfa Romeo. Like Henry Ford, I take off my hat to them.

The 750 Giuliettas were only built once, and they will not return. Accept that and go on. Before one critiques latter day Alfas, drive them first and absorb their new DNA. Take off the Archie Bunker hat and enjoy them. Understand that they are and necessarily will be different. And please, show some respect for those who brought them to reality. They are wonderfully talented and educated people... all of them.

I rest my case.
kcabpilot, goats, Rutlefan and 2 others like this.

alfaloco
Lexington, KY USA
alfaloco is offline  
post #97 of 128 (permalink) Old 08-08-2019, 08:36 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6
Any successful sports car combines form and function. I never drove a 4C because I wouldn't even use it as a hearse. In other words, I wouldn't be caught dead in it. It has all the allure of a lug nut.

By contrast, the 8C looks invincible, as if it could cut through the wind like a missile and arrive with all the style of Milan. The 4C looks like someone from Gold's Gym whose taken w-a-y too many steroids and now can't walk or move without looking unnatural. And yet, that's the current trend among cars from Ferrari, Lotus, and other hyper-masculine brands. It's body building showboating instead of ballet power and grace.

Maserati, after the glow of the A6Gs, reached its pinnacle with the original Ghibli. Alfa had a multitude of post-war cars that merited acclaim. But the recent crop of crapulous designs has no distinction once you get beyond the grill. Even if they performed like a car being driven by Fangio, their appearance would make them unlovable. And that's what the market has made clear.
Alfissimo Int. likes this.
Giuliettalfredo is offline  
post #98 of 128 (permalink) Old 08-09-2019, 01:00 AM
PSk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga New Zealand
Posts: 11,469
Send a message via AIM to PSk Send a message via Yahoo to PSk
Wow, a PSk type rant ... and it wasn't even me, lol

Pete
Alfissimo Int. likes this.

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
156 Series 1 v6 ... and remember it's all just opinions
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSk is offline  
post #99 of 128 (permalink) Old 08-09-2019, 02:34 AM
Registered User
 
alfettapb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: uk
Posts: 490
GiuliettaAlfredo please look at the youtube video by savagegeese on the 4C and I think it sums up the car perfectly. Aesthetics are very subjective but many people like the looks and dimensions of the car.

A design study was made some years before it was launched and exhibited at motor shows and the reaction to that design (small as it was) was very positive so FCA decided to build it but put probably 80% of the money into the carbon fibre tub structure of the car. The engine/gearbox and suspension was borrowed wholesale from the Alfa Romeo Giulietta QV (not sold in USA) but with an all aluminum engine, so saving cost and the interior was basic and not really premium but significantly more comfy and roomy than the Lotus Elise which was the closest competitor really. The aim was lightness and they succeeded with a weight well below the tonne and makes the car super responsive.
However they were too cost conscious and the lack of double wishbones on the rear hampered handling/ride and the steering was not as feelsome as a non assisted rack should be, esepcially compared to the Lotus. There was also turbo lag and no manual shift.
Lastly no decent luggage space which I think they could have engineered into the front.

The current similar philosophy car on sale is the Renault Alpine and because the structure is Aluminum all the money was spent rightly on the mechanics and suspension setup, including double wishbones all round, while still keeping the weight low (1100kg) but again with no manual and very little luggage capacity. However the dynamics, steering and suspension/handling have been lauded by motor journalists and makes it such a pity a little more money and effort was not put into the Alfa 4C. There are a few modified 4Cs in Italy with a longitudinal NA engine and pushrod suspension, but Alfa Romeo should have done the same!

Regarding Alfa Romeos place in the market the marque (before it became only a brand of FCA in 1986) was seriously downgraded post 1945. Before the war Alfa ROmeo were super expensive and the Ferraris of their time.
The cars post 1945 were mass produced and affordable to the professional person in Italy even if the cars were much more expensive abroad due to taxes. Up to about 1975 the Alfa Romeos were premium sports vehicles.
The introduction of the Alfasud and the change of director in the early 1970s pushed Alfa Romeo to compete mainstream and the alfetta platform was never replaced; the Alfa 164 was on a different platform but not Alfas and not what they wished in a number of respects.

The Giulia and Stelvio are aimed at the more premium segment now with higher pricing to compete with other premium marques but I agree the styling of the cars did not really catch my attention so much, even is they are discreetly handsome. From what I read they deliberately made the Giulia more BMW like since their cars were the sector masters and sold well or perhaps the modern aerodynamics of cars makes them much less easy to be so different in design while fulfilling their aero and efficiency aims. However for me the Giulia is too big and with too small a trunk also. Their standout factor must be the QV engines designed by Ferrari engineers and that is cool!
alfettapb is offline  
post #100 of 128 (permalink) Old 08-09-2019, 06:45 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,700
The McPherson strut or Chapman strut mimics double wishbone geometry quite well and holds alignment settings much better. In fact a McPherson strut will hold correct alignment more or less indefinitely, in part because only toe is adjustable.

Given the slagging it seems to receive from suspension guru wannabes it is a little ironic that the McPherson strut works even better on a sportscar than on a more softly sprung sedan. Stiffer springs mean shorter travel and less camber change with suspension movement, the McPherson strut's supposed Achilles heel.

The 4C is a great sportscar, but the turbo engine sounds a little like a tractor engine. Turbos do that, the characteristic noise sportscar lovers want is from the exhaust and a turbo just flattens that sound. Turbo engines also trade rpm for bmep. So you don't get the zing from high rpm shifting. Ferrari has fixed this to some extent by altering the boost pressure curve to reduce bmep at low rpm while retaining high bmep at high rpm. It's engineering nonsense but gets a better engine sound.

The popularity of SUVs has nothing to do with what car makers want to build. It is often forgotten that business supplies only what people will buy. Always. What people want, or think they want, may make no sense but supplying what the consumer thinks he or she wants is what business managers do if they want to stay employed.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new
Michael Smith is offline  
post #101 of 128 (permalink) Old 08-09-2019, 07:30 AM
Registered User
 
alfettapb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: uk
Posts: 490
From the 60's until recently double wishbone suspension was the default racing suspension and also for road supercars and there is is so much technical literature concerning their benefits widely available, such as more negative camber giving more stability and adhesion to the tarmac, plus a more constant wheel alignment as you steer. I would say that a dedion rear axle has certain benefits over double wishbones as used by caterham who chose dedion suspension for their quite focused minimalist sports car.
macpherson struts are cheap and uncomplicated to produce and are used extensively on many cars, including my own Fiats for which they do a great job as they are not weighty and provide good road comfort. However this suspension has its own defects also and on the 4C the short travel rear suspension and ride quality was the defect commonly reported by road testers that hampered handling compared to the Renault Alpine whose rear suspension allows the car to breathe with the changes in camber allied to a much better ride quality.

Recently for road supercars many have adopted double wishbones up front and multilink at the rear to allow better fine tuning of the rear.
alfettapb is offline  
post #102 of 128 (permalink) Old 08-09-2019, 08:10 AM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
Alfissimo Int.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,631
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWHALFA View Post
Both the 4C Coupe and Spider are ridiculously small for the American market where Alfa probably hoped to sell well.
The Cabins of both cars are much tighter than Giulietta and Giulia Coupes and Spiders from the 1950s and 1960s.
When the cars were introduced, the average younger American drivers were considerably taller and more robust in size than in 1960, even if they are in great shape physically.
Why did they make those beautiful cars SO DARN SMALL ?
Have you ever tried on clothing from Europe? Their Large is not our Large. That might help with understanding why we need larger cars here. I am not referring to being over weight either. American's are just larger folk. Maybe because we have room to stretch out over here. lol


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Jason Minos


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


New: +1 619-209-0715
e-mail:admin at alfissimo.com
San Diego, CA
1989 Spider Quad. Gone
1991 White Alfa Romeo 164S Recaro, Siena, Zender.-GONE
2010 Touareg TDI
2017 Giulia Ti Sport Q4, Trofeo, Leather package(red), Staggered.
Alfissimo Int. is offline  
post #103 of 128 (permalink) Old 08-09-2019, 09:09 AM
Del
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: seattle
Posts: 15,288
We have been and are familiar with many Japanese people, as friends, exchange students, and professional people, here and in Japan, all either Japanese or USA citizens. One thing we noticed, and they tend to acknowledge, is that when they were raised with a typical Japanese diet in Japan, they were in general of smaller stature, but for those raised on a more western diet, or raised in the West, they grew just plain larger. The younger the person, the bigger the average stature seems.

I remember riding in one of the very first Datsun pickups brought into the US (grade school chum's father had the first Datsun dealer in the States), and I could not fit into it without a great deal of discomfort, lol.

So, yes, Some of the reason for some larger cars is the increase in modern stature, but as well, it's just an ego thing. That's been written up and studied, as I've read in the Science mags we get.

Then, in comparison, lol, we have airliners, where the seats and spacing have been shrinking, thus contributing to the increased unrest and discomfort experienced when flying. Compared to the old days, we both now hate flying.

Same for ancient suits of armor in Europe. They are really small in size and the average modern man cannot fit within, having been raised on modern Western diets. It's the better diet for the most part, regardless of the junk food most tend to eat as well.


Finally: "Take off the Archie Bunker hat"

Oooh, that really hurts.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 08-09-2019 at 11:55 AM.
Del is offline  
post #104 of 128 (permalink) Old 08-09-2019, 12:05 PM
Registered User
 
nealric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,009
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliettalfredo View Post
Any successful sports car combines form and function. I never drove a 4C because I wouldn't even use it as a hearse. In other words, I wouldn't be caught dead in it. It has all the allure of a lug nut.

By contrast, the 8C looks invincible, as if it could cut through the wind like a missile and arrive with all the style of Milan. The 4C looks like someone from Gold's Gym whose taken w-a-y too many steroids and now can't walk or move without looking unnatural. And yet, that's the current trend among cars from Ferrari, Lotus, and other hyper-masculine brands. It's body building showboating instead of ballet power and grace.

Maserati, after the glow of the A6Gs, reached its pinnacle with the original Ghibli. Alfa had a multitude of post-war cars that merited acclaim. But the recent crop of crapulous designs has no distinction once you get beyond the grill. Even if they performed like a car being driven by Fangio, their appearance would make them unlovable. And that's what the market has made clear.
To each their own. To me, the 8C looks gorgeous from afar, but seeing one in person significantly reduced the appeal. The interior is not befitting an expensive exotic, and the whole package is a bit awkward. I honestly prefer the looks of the 4C.

My thoughts on Alfa's failure to (re)launch in the U.S.:

I think the biggest mistake on the 4C was going with a carbon chassis on a car at that price point. There's a reason why carbon had only been attempted on much more expensive cars. They blew the budget on the chassis and had little left over for everything else. Plus, U.S. regulations requiring an additional 300lbs to be added certainly didn't help the impression. It was certainly a small car, but nobody buys a 2-seat roaster for uitility. But I don't think going bigger or more plush with the 4C would have helped either. The only 2-seat cars that sell in any serious volume are the Miata and the Corvette. Both have dedicated built-in followings that will be hard to lure people away from. A 2-seater was never going to be a volume seller- the point was a rolling advertisement to announce the return. It did that to a degree, but they needed to sell in greater numbers to really make a splash.

Rather than the 4c, what they really should have done is reintroduced the Alfa Spider as a genuine up-market Miata-platform car. It should have had a motor with significantly more power than the Miata, along with the swoopier Alfa styling. The Fiat Spider we got was nothing more than an "alt" Miata. It had barely more power and lacked a truly distinctive look.

I think the Giulia itself is stunning, but they needed to be a lot more careful about making sure the bugs were worked out before bringing it to market. They knew (or should have known) that Alfa was working against a reliability stigma, and the early software issues cemented that stigma for the current generation. Even most car-folks I know who love the idea of driving a Giulia Quad are scared of actually buying one. It becomes a self-reinforcing cycle as frightful depreciation sets in, creating one more reason to be wary of buying one new.

The Stelvio was a shameless money grab given the strange obsession we collectively have with SUVs (and tall station wagons meant to look like them), but I don't thing the strategy was bad. I don't expect the new "Tonale" to go anywhere- it's the answer to a question few were asking. Plus, that name really needed to be run by a few more native English speakers who would have told them that Americans are going to say "Toe Nail."

Finally, I think the death of Sergio Marchione may have spelled doom for Alfa - he was a booster of the brand. Without him, I don't see the powers that be in FCA allocating it much resources, especially in light of recent performance.

Last edited by nealric; 08-09-2019 at 12:09 PM.
nealric is offline  
post #105 of 128 (permalink) Old 08-09-2019, 12:38 PM
PSk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga New Zealand
Posts: 11,469
Send a message via AIM to PSk Send a message via Yahoo to PSk
The 8c (modern) is just a Maserati wearing different clothes. I'm amazed that Alfisti don't get upset about that.

Would we rave about an Alfa Romeo built on a Toyota Corolla too?

And yes I know my 156v6 uses a FIAT platform but it has a 100% Alfa Romeo engine which the 8c (modern) does not.

It upsets me that the modern Guilia QV has a Ferrari engine with 2 cylinders cut off (and before you start saying it doesn't, lets be real. Same designer, same bore and stroke, same included angle ... and it makes engineering and financial sense).

Yes I understand I'm sort of saying there is no such thing as a true Alfa Romeo anymore, but no I'm not saying that. But picking another car and just changing the body, and slapping an Alfa badge on it does not make it an Alfa to me.

The Guilia was atleast designed as an Alfa, even though it uses FIAT and Ferrari based engines. You cannot say that about the 8c (modern).
Pete

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
156 Series 1 v6 ... and remember it's all just opinions
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSk is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome