Alfa Romeo Forums banner

Motortrend Giulia vs new BMW 3 series

4K views 23 replies 10 participants last post by  Michael Smith 
#1 ·
#3 ·
Now if we just could convince Consumer Reports to get rid of their terrible reliability assessment, where they just predicted from the onset that the reliability would be trash. Totally unjustified, as they don't do that for other cars which sometimes turn out to be just that.
 
#4 · (Edited)
So did I.

Although frankly that isn't difficult to achieve since German cars all ride too hard for no good reason. The absurd obsession the world seems to have about German cars being "best" has degraded the ride of almost all competing cars.

British cars are still best at this, of the cars we might get. Truly it is the French who produce the very best riding cars. Italy has long been known for excellent suspension engineers as has Sweden. Germany could do it, Bilstein and Sachs are both top notch suspension component makers, but automotive fashion in Germany dictates higher spring and damper rates than are ideal for road cars. They are particularly bad at selecting rear spring rates and consequently fit dampers with too high bump and rebound rates giving a chassis that tends to be twitchy as you approach the limit. A certain German maker has always made this fundamental mistake in pursuit of lap times in preference to effective high road speeds.

Japanese competitors do even worse trying to get that German car feel. You notice the effects as pogo stick bouncing from the rear of the car. The pitch rate is adversely affected by this particular choice. I routinely test drive over traffic calming bumps (in the uk they call these sleeping policemen). My Jaguar XF or my 164 need not slow down to traverse these comfortably. Any German car will cause your head to hit the roof or the seatbelt to lock, if you're lucky. Never order a German car with the, usually quite expensive, sports suspension. They are routinely just awful to drive.

As an aside I couldn't help noting the criticism of the ZF automatic: the driver couldn't predict how the transmission would react to the gas pedal. Um, that would be the automatic part. Similar critiques complain that you can't tell which gear you're in, that they shift too often and again that would be the automatic part.

And the Giulia is a head turning beauty which no German maker can match nor ever has.
 
#6 ·
#7 ·
Well I can’t speak for how they drive but the new 3-series looks like a Lexus from behind. I followed one into a parking structure yesterday and had to look twice to make sure the badge was right.
 
#8 ·
Felt the same, in a way, about the new Giulia, as one day when we were driving down a back road (on our way through eastern Oregon to view the total eclipse), we came upon a newish looking car, but didn't recognize it at all, just another car to pass. Wasn't until we passed it and saw the Alfa grill did we realize that we had just passed a new Giulia.

No, they didn't wave or anything.
 
#10 ·
I haven't driven the new Giulia but accept that the handling and ride are outstanding.
In their day, the 101 and 105 series were the equivalent.
Better than most cars driven hard on any "B" road in the wet or dry.
Actually, they are still relatively good.

It is gratifying that Alfa finally got around to doing it right. With their front-wheel-drive cars the assembly-line engineers were in charge.
Racing engineers are influential again.
Will I buy one?
If I was younger--yes.
My DD is a 2008 BMW 535 xi Touring Wagon which stock is quite fast.
In 2010 I had the Dinan Stage 2 done.
HP goes from 300 to 375.
Torque from 300 to 415.
The suspension is a good compromise between handling and comfort. But it has the harsh-riding 50 ratio tires.
BMW is going to have to improve their suspension. First step would be to update the front struts.
 
#11 · (Edited)
"It is gratifying that Alfa finally got around to doing it right. With their front-wheel-drive cars the assembly-line engineers were in charge"

Still, given that the new Giulia will handle better and is faster (more hp from a somewhat turbo lagged engine), the 164 still ended up a pretty darn good Alfa, with decent enough general handling, a very good looking and running Alfa engine, certainly the right sounds as compared to the new engine, very good overall performance, and, really, all the infotainment and hvac systems one really only needs, in a better looking body in many respects, according to more than a few, lol.

A very unappreciated Alfa, the 164, disdained by many who have only the older cars, but that's ok, glad for the existence of the older classics (loved my Sprint GT, even with it's own faults, and the sedans were very serviceable while still being fun to drive).
 
#12 · (Edited)
Another MotorTrend comparison...

Not to rain on anyone's parade, and trust me, even though I currently own a modern domestic, I still have a couple vintage Alfas and consider myself an Alfista, and love the whole Italian car mystique. I truly hope the brand relaunch in the states is successful, and we see Alfa here on our shores for years to come. They have a very competitive and compelling product line-up.

But while you guys are glad-handing yourselves over the German competition, there's an onshore brand that really hasn't garnered any respect in this luxury sports-sedan horse race...

The ATS-V weighs more - ~ 100lbs over the QV (nice job on the CF drive shaft and roof? for the Alfa), - down approximately ~40hp in stock engine horsepower compared to the QV (Caddy limited max output for marketing reasons - and perhaps reliability/longevity? - so it doesn't encroach on gen3 CTS-V hp #s - plenty of HP left on the shelf for the twin turbo 3.6L LF4 engine, which only has 18PSI boost in stock form), and it runs on Michelin PSS tires as OEM tire (no slouch but...), while the Alfa has the Pirelli P Zero Corsas, with a tread depth of 6/32 and a wear rating of only 60! ... basically a 'track tire' in street name only.

And yet...

.
 

Attachments

#16 · (Edited)
Long term reliability... hard to say. The GM 3.6L DOHC V6 engine is stout and its foundation came from the corporate 3.6 (gen 3 or 4 now..?) that has been around for ever and a day. Extra cooling, titanium conrods and other special bits differentiate this engine from its corp siblings. Multiple radiators and coolers abound, even for the rear e-diff (taken from the C7 Corvette). As for brakes rotors (2-piece front), hubs, and Brembo calipers, that's all borrowed from the bigger brother - the CTS-V, so those are robust and over engineered.

I think age wise, electronics, especially in a high heat environment (turbo car) is where we are going to see more funky stuff down the road. My car is only 3yrs old, only 23K miles on it now, but there are folks on some Caddy Social media that have 50K+ miles on theirs and so far so good.

As for the better driver's car, I think both the Giulia and the ATS are at the top of the segment. While the Alfa has more immediacy and steering feel (that quick ratio rack is part of the secret sauce) the ATS is a close second, with many magazines saying that Caddy/GM got the Bosch electric steering right compared to the Bimmer. With Alfa using the Brake by Wire 'IBS' system, I think most would give the nod to the Caddy for braking feel/progression. Also handling wise, I think both cars are a toss up. Caddy does implement rev3 of the MRC - magride shocks - so good that Ferrari licenses the technology from GM. Both have great balance (front mid-engine placement) and keep weight in check. This Alpha chassis platform that Caddy uses (ironic I know) is really great, and I've been impressed so far.... having owned a 2013 ATS 2L Turbo for two years, before upgrading to this ATS-V which I have had for almost 2.5 years. The ATS-V is about 25-30% stiffer due to a front chassis sheer plate below, and uses stiffer/non-compliance bushings for more direct feel over the standard ATS. I do track my ATS-V (HPDE events) and it has proven robust, never a hiccup.
 
#15 ·
18 psi is a lot of boost pressure for a street engine. That's just over 1.2 Bar.

Delivering much more than 200 bhp to the front drive chassis can get pretty challenging regardless of the skills of the engineers. Modern software can modulate close to 300 bhp but without electronic aids an ordinary street driver cannot utilize the power. For turbo or supercharged power it's the additional torque that becomes impossible to get onto the road. Ferrari and Alfa both limit torque at lower rpm ranges in lower gears for this reason, and for rwd or awd.

AWD is the simplest solution to big horsepower in a road car, well, big torque actually.

The Cadillac model compared to the Giulia is actually a European design. By Opel/Vauxhall with the basics from SAAB before they went under.
 
#19 · (Edited)
18 psi is a lot of boost pressure for a street engine. That's just over 1.2 Bar.

...

The Cadillac model compared to the Giulia is actually a European design. By Opel/Vauxhall with the basics from SAAB before they went under.
Michael, a little confused by your last statement about the ATS-V being a 'euro design' and the mention of Opel/Vauxhall. The ATS platform (based on the 'new' Alpha chassis introduced first by the Caddy ATS in 2013) is a GM/Caddy in-house project. Nothing owing to any international partners. The gen3 CTS, and latest Camaro also use the alpha platform. I'll grant you that this car was a bit of a departure for GM/Caddy in that it has an IRS and weight and handling were some of the priorities for the car, certainly drives/handles more like a euro sports sedan than any thing before it from GM.

A late edit:
Getting back to the 18psi comment by Michael... doesn't the Giulia QV generate something near 30psi for its 2.9L twin turbo barn stormer...? The Caddy uses somewhat small MHI turbos (in order to spool up quickly). Some aftermarket tunes have those small turbos spooling up to 21-22psi, which maxes them out. At least one aftermarket parts supplier is looking at bigger turbo kits (along with upgraded fuel delivery) but that is BIG $$$. My needs (skills) will never warrant that, but there are plenty of 'good old boys' wanting that for drag racing. Funny (frustrating actually), the social media feeds I follow, I'd say 65-70% of the performance threads deal with drag racing, roll ons, street cred, and all manner of straight line shenanigans. Heavy sigh....

The ATS-V is SO much more than that, and was actually built for tackling the track and challenging back roads. The corporate press launch of the ATS-V was held at the Circuit of the Americas F1 track in Austin, TX. Caddy was serious about the ATS-V track capabilities, and let motor journalists lap the track with a fleet of ATS-Vs! Pretty ballsy to launch a performance car at such a technically sophisticated track! This was a highly capable sports sedan meant to lure Euro luxury sports-sedan owners to Caddy, but few have ever changed marque allegiances. Sad. GM's reputation preceded them, as usual. The ATS-V, such a great car, but such a marketing/sales failure!!

The ATS was introduced in 2012 as a 2013 model. The ATS-V came on to the scene as a 2016 model (late 2015). ATS-V sedan production ended in 2018, with the ATS-V coupe finally ending production in late Spring/early Summer of this year. Total production numbers for the ATS-V variant are approximately 4500 cars (about 60-65% sedans), with about a 15% take rate on the manual transmission (6sp Tremec 6060) across both V variants. I have one of the manual 6sp sedans. Truly a modern unicorn... (less than 450 sedans, about 675 ATS-V cars overall are 3 pedal monsters!)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Alfissimo Int.
#22 ·
Prove? I don't think anyone outside GM could do that.

Car makers often claim to redesign from a clean sheet of paper, or words to that effect. They don't as far as I can tell.

The 6th generation Camaro is a tiny bit shorter and a tiny bit narrower and about 8% lighter. If it really were to have been a clean sheet design I'd expect more differences.

Now the Giulia was a clean sheet design for Alfa as they had nothing like it in their model range when they started the project. Not anywhere in FIAT Group in fact.

Maserati developed the Ghibli from their Quattroporte though they too claimed they had designed a completely new car. The Giulia is quite a bit smaller than the Ghibli.
 
#23 · (Edited)
I have no proof either. Even a slumbering giant (GM) has talented people who can swing for the stars and connect on a fastball every once in a blue moon (see what I did there?). The Alpha chassis has size flexibility built in, so dimensions between the ATS, the CTS, and Camaro do differ, though all share the same platform. But the Caddy ATS was the first GM model to introduce the alpha chassis, the 3rd gen CTS next, and the gen6 Camaro was last by a couple of years. As for 'clean sheet' there was nothing in GM's car inventory (neither @ Opel or Holden) that could be attributed to the new chassis...nor has Holden or Opel released a model using this chassis. Ummm... So I'm inclined to give GM some kudos on this one...(did they 'bring in' some euro talent to help- can't say fer sure) and trust me, I'm no domestic car fan-boy.

The Caddies are something new to me (since 2015, two years before Alfa FINALLY hit our shores again!) having been an Alfista foremost for 25yrs+, with a smattering of german offerings ('86 MB 190e 2.3-16v, '94 BMW E36 325i) and a couple of old pickup trucks (for house projects/hauling crap) thrown in. (Wish I still had that 190E-16v!!) E-gads, I have had 14 Alfas over a 25 year stretch. Still have a few. 'Alfa credentials intact.'

Give GM (reluctantly) credit where credit is due. They've produced a great handling sports sedan, in spite of themselves. lol
 
#24 ·
I think the main tragedy operating here is North American consumer's preference for minivan/SUV/crossover vehicles and the diminishing demand for any sedan or sportscar product no matter how well executed.

I see the same weird preference spreading in Europe also.

The twin marketing myths promoting this market change are added safety of the larger chassis and the idea that these vehicles give one access to the great uncrowded outdoors. Neither marketing gimmick is true but then they don't have to be true to work.

Coupled to that is a growing social movement against "the car" meaning fossil fuelled personal transportation. Anti highway, anti parking and just generally anti technology. Anti driving as a personal skill worth acquiring is a prominent result if these social changes.

GM, Ford, FCA, and even the famous European makers are all suffering from this steep decline in demand for sedans and sportscars. The response so far has been the development of ever better cars and sportscars but to no avail as the market continues to shrink.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Renaldo
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top