Motortrend Giulia vs new BMW 3 series - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 05:53 AM Thread Starter
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Motortrend Giulia vs new BMW 3 series

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa...mparison-test/

"We found the Giulia's ride and handling superior to the BMW's."

-Antti: --ex Alfas:155 2.0 8V '92,155 2.0 16V '96,156 V6 '98,156 V6 '02
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 01:11 AM
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That’s gotta hurt the Stuttgart guys.
Like it.
Nice not to have a review scattered with excuses about Alfa shortcomings....”nice, but...”
It’s been a while.
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 01:52 PM
Del
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Now if we just could convince Consumer Reports to get rid of their terrible reliability assessment, where they just predicted from the onset that the reliability would be trash. Totally unjustified, as they don't do that for other cars which sometimes turn out to be just that.
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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 05:38 AM
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So did I.

Although frankly that isn't difficult to achieve since German cars all ride too hard for no good reason. The absurd obsession the world seems to have about German cars being "best" has degraded the ride of almost all competing cars.

British cars are still best at this, of the cars we might get. Truly it is the French who produce the very best riding cars. Italy has long been known for excellent suspension engineers as has Sweden. Germany could do it, Bilstein and Sachs are both top notch suspension component makers, but automotive fashion in Germany dictates higher spring and damper rates than are ideal for road cars. They are particularly bad at selecting rear spring rates and consequently fit dampers with too high bump and rebound rates giving a chassis that tends to be twitchy as you approach the limit. A certain German maker has always made this fundamental mistake in pursuit of lap times in preference to effective high road speeds.

Japanese competitors do even worse trying to get that German car feel. You notice the effects as pogo stick bouncing from the rear of the car. The pitch rate is adversely affected by this particular choice. I routinely test drive over traffic calming bumps (in the uk they call these sleeping policemen). My Jaguar XF or my 164 need not slow down to traverse these comfortably. Any German car will cause your head to hit the roof or the seatbelt to lock, if you're lucky. Never order a German car with the, usually quite expensive, sports suspension. They are routinely just awful to drive.

As an aside I couldn't help noting the criticism of the ZF automatic: the driver couldn't predict how the transmission would react to the gas pedal. Um, that would be the automatic part. Similar critiques complain that you can't tell which gear you're in, that they shift too often and again that would be the automatic part.

And the Giulia is a head turning beauty which no German maker can match nor ever has.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new

Last edited by Michael Smith; 06-13-2019 at 05:51 AM.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 09:12 AM
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Great review! Just noticed a new neighbor has a Guilia. Gotta go introduce myself....

QQ - What is a "radio"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsix View Post
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa...mparison-test/

"We found the Giulia's ride and handling superior to the BMW's."

Mike
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1966 Super
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 09:22 AM
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Well, I just read the specs on the Quadrifoglio @ Car & Driver (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...bility-update/).

I've never seen a "Zero to 170 MPH" time quoted before. Nice.

I won't be buying one of those.....for some unknown reason law enforcement gets all excited about speeds above 100 mph....

My '69 GTV & '66 Super have exactly the right amount of horsepower ("stay out of trouble" HP) and electronics.

Mike
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 08:38 PM
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Well I can’t speak for how they drive but the new 3-series looks like a Lexus from behind. I followed one into a parking structure yesterday and had to look twice to make sure the badge was right.

Alister
1973 105 GTV (Alfa #6 of 19 owned)
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 10:40 PM
Del
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Felt the same, in a way, about the new Giulia, as one day when we were driving down a back road (on our way through eastern Oregon to view the total eclipse), we came upon a newish looking car, but didn't recognize it at all, just another car to pass. Wasn't until we passed it and saw the Alfa grill did we realize that we had just passed a new Giulia.

No, they didn't wave or anything.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggie57 View Post
Well I canít speak for how they drive but the new 3-series looks like a Lexus from behind. I followed one into a parking structure yesterday and had to look twice to make sure the badge was right.
Same thing for me. When i see one i tell the owner nice Lexus.
The new A4 looks like the Giulia from behind. I always get all exited until i get closer and am disappointed.
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 07:54 AM
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I haven't driven the new Giulia but accept that the handling and ride are outstanding.
In their day, the 101 and 105 series were the equivalent.
Better than most cars driven hard on any "B" road in the wet or dry.
Actually, they are still relatively good.

It is gratifying that Alfa finally got around to doing it right. With their front-wheel-drive cars the assembly-line engineers were in charge.
Racing engineers are influential again.
Will I buy one?
If I was younger--yes.
My DD is a 2008 BMW 535 xi Touring Wagon which stock is quite fast.
In 2010 I had the Dinan Stage 2 done.
HP goes from 300 to 375.
Torque from 300 to 415.
The suspension is a good compromise between handling and comfort. But it has the harsh-riding 50 ratio tires.
BMW is going to have to improve their suspension. First step would be to update the front struts.

Bob,
Avatar is the 68 Super, bought new.
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 10:52 AM
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"It is gratifying that Alfa finally got around to doing it right. With their front-wheel-drive cars the assembly-line engineers were in charge"

Still, given that the new Giulia will handle better and is faster (more hp from a somewhat turbo lagged engine), the 164 still ended up a pretty darn good Alfa, with decent enough general handling, a very good looking and running Alfa engine, certainly the right sounds as compared to the new engine, very good overall performance, and, really, all the infotainment and hvac systems one really only needs, in a better looking body in many respects, according to more than a few, lol.

A very unappreciated Alfa, the 164, disdained by many who have only the older cars, but that's ok, glad for the existence of the older classics (loved my Sprint GT, even with it's own faults, and the sedans were very serviceable while still being fun to drive).
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Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 06-16-2019 at 11:02 AM.
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 05:53 PM
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Another MotorTrend comparison...

Not to rain on anyone's parade, and trust me, even though I currently own a modern domestic, I still have a couple vintage Alfas and consider myself an Alfista, and love the whole Italian car mystique. I truly hope the brand relaunch in the states is successful, and we see Alfa here on our shores for years to come. They have a very competitive and compelling product line-up.

But while you guys are glad-handing yourselves over the German competition, there's an onshore brand that really hasn't garnered any respect in this luxury sports-sedan horse race...

The ATS-V weighs more - ~ 100lbs over the QV (nice job on the CF drive shaft and roof? for the Alfa), - down approximately ~40hp in stock engine horsepower compared to the QV (Caddy limited max output for marketing reasons - and perhaps reliability/longevity? - so it doesn't encroach on gen3 CTS-V hp #s - plenty of HP left on the shelf for the twin turbo 3.6L LF4 engine, which only has 18PSI boost in stock form), and it runs on Michelin PSS tires as OEM tire (no slouch but...), while the Alfa has the Pirelli P Zero Corsas, with a tread depth of 6/32 and a wear rating of only 60! ... basically a 'track tire' in street name only.

And yet...

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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 07:42 PM
Del
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I wonder which would be the more reliable over the long run, and although both are very fast, which one would be considered the "drivers car"?

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Del View Post
"It is gratifying that Alfa finally got around to doing it right. With their front-wheel-drive cars the assembly-line engineers were in charge"

Still, given that the new Giulia will handle better and is faster (more hp from a somewhat turbo lagged engine), the 164 still ended up a pretty darn good Alfa, with decent enough general handling, a very good looking and running Alfa engine, certainly the right sounds as compared to the new engine, very good overall performance, and, really, all the infotainment and hvac systems one really only needs, in a better looking body in many respects, according to more than a few, lol.

A very unappreciated Alfa, the 164, disdained by many who have only the older cars, but that's ok, glad for the existence of the older classics (loved my Sprint GT, even with it's own faults, and the sedans were very serviceable while still being fun to drive).
Perhaps the "Let's sort it out engineers" improved the basic problem of FWD.

Bob,
Avatar is the 68 Super, bought new.
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 06:31 AM
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18 psi is a lot of boost pressure for a street engine. That's just over 1.2 Bar.

Delivering much more than 200 bhp to the front drive chassis can get pretty challenging regardless of the skills of the engineers. Modern software can modulate close to 300 bhp but without electronic aids an ordinary street driver cannot utilize the power. For turbo or supercharged power it's the additional torque that becomes impossible to get onto the road. Ferrari and Alfa both limit torque at lower rpm ranges in lower gears for this reason, and for rwd or awd.

AWD is the simplest solution to big horsepower in a road car, well, big torque actually.

The Cadillac model compared to the Giulia is actually a European design. By Opel/Vauxhall with the basics from SAAB before they went under.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new
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