Motortrend Giulia vs new BMW 3 series - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 08:20 PM
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I wonder which would be the more reliable over the long run, and although both are very fast, which one would be considered the "drivers car"?
Long term reliability... hard to say. The GM 3.6L DOHC V6 engine is stout and its foundation came from the corporate 3.6 (gen 3 or 4 now..?) that has been around for ever and a day. Extra cooling, titanium conrods and other special bits differentiate this engine from its corp siblings. Multiple radiators and coolers abound, even for the rear e-diff (taken from the C7 Corvette). As for brakes rotors (2-piece front), hubs, and Brembo calipers, that's all borrowed from the bigger brother - the CTS-V, so those are robust and over engineered.

I think age wise, electronics, especially in a high heat environment (turbo car) is where we are going to see more funky stuff down the road. My car is only 3yrs old, only 23K miles on it now, but there are folks on some Caddy Social media that have 50K+ miles on theirs and so far so good.

As for the better driver's car, I think both the Giulia and the ATS are at the top of the segment. While the Alfa has more immediacy and steering feel (that quick ratio rack is part of the secret sauce) the ATS is a close second, with many magazines saying that Caddy/GM got the Bosch electric steering right compared to the Bimmer. With Alfa using the Brake by Wire 'IBS' system, I think most would give the nod to the Caddy for braking feel/progression. Also handling wise, I think both cars are a toss up. Caddy does implement rev3 of the MRC - magride shocks - so good that Ferrari licenses the technology from GM. Both have great balance (front mid-engine placement) and keep weight in check. This Alpha chassis platform that Caddy uses (ironic I know) is really great, and I've been impressed so far.... having owned a 2013 ATS 2L Turbo for two years, before upgrading to this ATS-V which I have also had for two years. I do track my ATS-V (HPDE events) and it has proven robust, never a hiccup.

Ron
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67 Duetto - Angelina
84 GTV6 - 'Alvetta' - 3.5L 24v + Corvette C5
95 164LS - Black Bomber - 6sp w/Q2 LSD - for sale!
16 Caddy ATS-V w/6sp MT

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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 09:09 PM
Del
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It does sound like a very interesting car. Can't afford either car, nor do I need that much performance.
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Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 06-18-2019 at 10:44 AM.
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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 11:37 AM
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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 07:55 PM
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18 psi is a lot of boost pressure for a street engine. That's just over 1.2 Bar.

...

The Cadillac model compared to the Giulia is actually a European design. By Opel/Vauxhall with the basics from SAAB before they went under.
Michael, a little confused by your last statement about the ATS-V being a 'euro design' and the mention of Opel/Vauxhall. The ATS platform (based on the 'new' Alpha chassis introduced first by the Caddy ATS in 2013) is a GM/Caddy in-house project. Nothing owing to any international partners. The gen3 CTS, and latest Camaro also use the alpha platform. I'll grant you that this car was a bit of a departure for GM/Caddy in that it has an IRS and weight and handling were some of the priorities for the car, certainly drives/handles more like a euro sports sedan than any thing before it from GM.

A late edit:
Getting back to the 18psi comment by Michael... doesn't the Giulia QV generate something near 30psi for its 2.9L twin turbo barn stormer...? The Caddy uses somewhat small MHI turbos (in order to spool up quickly). Some aftermarket tunes have those small turbos spooling up to 21-22psi, which maxes them out. At least one aftermarket parts supplier is looking at bigger turbo kits (along with upgraded fuel delivery) but that is BIG $$$. My needs (skills) will never warrant that, but there are plenty of 'good old boys' wanting that for drag racing. Funny (frustrating actually), the social media feeds I follow, I'd say 65-70% of the performance threads deal with drag racing, roll ons, street cred, and all manner of straight line shenanigans. Heavy sigh....

The ATS-V is SO much more than that, and was actually built for tackling the track and challenging back roads. The corporate press launch of the ATS-V was held at the Circuit of the Americas F1 track in Austin, TX. Caddy was serious about the ATS-V track capabilities, and let motor journalists lap the track with a fleet of ATS-Vs! Pretty ballsy to launch a performance car at such a technically sophisticated track! This was a highly capable sports sedan meant to lure Euro luxury sports-sedan owners to Caddy, but few have ever changed marque alliances. Sad. GM's reputation preceded them, as usual. The ATS-V, such a great car, but such a marketing/sales failure!!

The ATS was introduced in 2012 as a 2013 model. The ATS-V came on to the scene as a 2016 model (late 2015). ATS-V sedan production ended in 2018, with the ATS-V coupe finally ending production in late Spring/early Summer of this year. Total production numbers for the ATS-V variant are approximately 4500 cars (about 60-65% sedans), with about a 15% take rate on the manual transmission (6sp Tremec 6060) across both V variants. I have one of the manual 6sp sedans. Truly a modern unicorn... (less than 450 sedans, about 675 ATS-V cars overall are 3 pedal monsters!)
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Ron
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67 Duetto - Angelina
84 GTV6 - 'Alvetta' - 3.5L 24v + Corvette C5
95 164LS - Black Bomber - 6sp w/Q2 LSD - for sale!
16 Caddy ATS-V w/6sp MT

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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-26-2019, 04:01 PM
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Michael, a little confused by your last statement about the ATS-V being a 'euro design' and the mention of Opel/Vauxhall. The ATS platform (based on the 'new' Alpha chassis introduced first by the Caddy ATS in 2013) is a GM/Caddy in-house project. Nothing owing to any international partners. The gen3 CTS, and latest Camaro also use the alpha platform. I'll grant you that this car was a bit of a departure for GM/Caddy in that it has an IRS and weight and handling were some of the priorities for the car, certainly drives/handles more like a euro sports sedan than any thing before it from GM.
I was thinking of the Malibu. Epsilon. Wikipedia makes a connection between Alpha and Epsilon platforms. The latter was developed for fwd but also handled awd.

Mind you it's a stretch to claim GM USA developed the alpha platform with no help from Oz, Holden got there first.

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post #21 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-28-2019, 07:36 PM
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I was thinking of the Malibu. Epsilon. Wikipedia makes a connection between Alpha and Epsilon platforms. The latter was developed for fwd but also handled awd.

Mind you it's a stretch to claim GM USA developed the alpha platform with no help from Oz, Holden got there first.
The Alpha chassis has been around since 2012 ('2013' ATS was initial car launch) and I have seen no such associations to Holden input (or any other) in the 6+ years of this platform. Like TMZ paparazzii crap, info like this would not have been kept submerged for so long. I call BS. Prove it, and I don't mean state further opinion/innuendo.

I also subscribe to 'GM Authority' posts... which is a 'everything GM' automotive news feed. Yeah, I get a lot of BS stuff on the General I'd rather not know, easily skipped in my feed. But it keeps me tuned in to major developments across all GM platforms/marques as it pertains to Caddy, plus I follow Corvette news as well. Granted, I didn't start following this until 2014 when I began to consider purchase of a regular ATS 2L Turbo which happened in the Spring of 2015. But at no time has there been any stories that have come forth about Holden or Opel as the engineering genesis for the alpha platform.

Ron
______________
67 Duetto - Angelina
84 GTV6 - 'Alvetta' - 3.5L 24v + Corvette C5
95 164LS - Black Bomber - 6sp w/Q2 LSD - for sale!
16 Caddy ATS-V w/6sp MT

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post #22 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 12:31 PM
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Prove? I don't think anyone outside GM could do that.

Car makers often claim to redesign from a clean sheet of paper, or words to that effect. They don't as far as I can tell.

The 6th generation Camaro is a tiny bit shorter and a tiny bit narrower and about 8% lighter. If it really were to have been a clean sheet design I'd expect more differences.

Now the Giulia was a clean sheet design for Alfa as they had nothing like it in their model range when they started the project. Not anywhere in FIAT Group in fact.

Maserati developed the Ghibli from their Quattroporte though they too claimed they had designed a completely new car. The Giulia is quite a bit smaller than the Ghibli.

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post #23 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 10:31 AM
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I have no proof either. Even a slumbering giant (GM) has talented people who can swing for the stars and connect on a fastball every once in a blue moon (see what I did there?). The Alpha chassis has size flexibility built in, so dimensions between the ATS, the CTS, and Camaro do differ, though all share the same platform. But the Caddy ATS was the first GM model to introduce the alpha chassis, the 3rd gen CTS next, and the gen6 Camaro was last by a couple of years. As for 'clean sheet' there was nothing in GM's car inventory (neither @ Opel or Holden) that could be attributed to the new chassis...nor has Holden or Opel released a model using this chassis. Ummm... So I'm inclined to give GM some kudos on this one...(did they 'bring in' some euro talent to help- can't say fer sure) and trust me, I'm no domestic car fan-boy.

The Caddies are something new to me (since 2015, two years before Alfa FINALLY hit our shores again!) having been an Alfista foremost for 25yrs+, with a smattering of german offerings ('86 MB 190e 2.3-16v, '94 BMW E36 325i) and a couple of old pickup trucks (for house projects/hauling crap) thrown in. (Wish I still had that 190E-16v!!) E-gads, I have had 14 Alfas over a 25 year stretch. Still have a few. 'Alfa credentials intact.'

Give GM (reluctantly) credit where credit is due. They've produced a great handling sports sedan, in spite of themselves. lol

Ron
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67 Duetto - Angelina
84 GTV6 - 'Alvetta' - 3.5L 24v + Corvette C5
95 164LS - Black Bomber - 6sp w/Q2 LSD - for sale!
16 Caddy ATS-V w/6sp MT

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post #24 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-04-2019, 07:17 AM
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I think the main tragedy operating here is North American consumer's preference for minivan/SUV/crossover vehicles and the diminishing demand for any sedan or sportscar product no matter how well executed.

I see the same weird preference spreading in Europe also.

The twin marketing myths promoting this market change are added safety of the larger chassis and the idea that these vehicles give one access to the great uncrowded outdoors. Neither marketing gimmick is true but then they don't have to be true to work.

Coupled to that is a growing social movement against "the car" meaning fossil fuelled personal transportation. Anti highway, anti parking and just generally anti technology. Anti driving as a personal skill worth acquiring is a prominent result if these social changes.

GM, Ford, FCA, and even the famous European makers are all suffering from this steep decline in demand for sedans and sportscars. The response so far has been the development of ever better cars and sportscars but to no avail as the market continues to shrink.
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