Performance Replacement Brakes for Giulia Models; - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-16-2019, 11:15 AM Thread Starter
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Performance Replacement Brakes for Giulia Models;

Group 2 Motorsports and GiroDisc have some VERY exciting news to share with the Giulia community! We are ready to install the first G2 / GiroDisc performance brake setup on a new Giulia road or street-track car!

First, some history for context...

As many here on the forum are aware, Group 2 Motorsports and GiroDisc co-developed some amazing performance brake solutions for various Alfa Romeo models over the years. Product offerings include well-engineered, true bolt-on, tested, high performance front and rear caliper, pad and floating hat rotor solutions for Spider, GTV and other 105 / 115 models, continuing on through complete front and rear caliper, pad and floating hat solutions for 116 Alfetta / GTV6 and Milano / 75 models - and most recently - floating hat, rotor and pad solutions to raise the bar on the 4C model's stopping power as well.

GiroDisc is a first-rate brake design, engineering, manufacturing and distribution company with a-LOT of brake development experience - backed up by decades of racing data feedback from a dedicated community utilizing their products. The quality, performance and cost value of our GiroDisc solutions are well-documented within the Porsche, Ferrari, Nissan GTR, Mitsubishi Evo, Corvette, Lotus and other performance vehicle communities as well. The giant full race AP / GiroDisc floating hat / rotor solution that I run on my own 3.7 litre 24v Milano race car, as well as the lightweight Wilwood / GiroDisc street-track setups running on dozens and dozens of Milanos and GTV6s out there, is first-rate and well-known!

All caliper brackets and floating hats are hard-anodized CNC pieces with branded "AR" part numbers. Floating hardware and fasteners have above industry-standard tensile ratings. Rotors are of a high-quality iron and the final product is zinc-dipped which maintains a nice, rust-free finished rotor edge. Pad selections draw from readily-available performance ranges and OEM part numbers such as Ferrodo, Pagid, Wilwood, Hawk, Brembo, Akebono, as well as GiroDisc's own Magic Pad product offerings.

These brake solutions are designed to reduce un-sprung weight (but also to reduce overall weight), to improve ventilation and cooling capacity, to reduce the potential for fade under performance driving conditions and to decrease stopping distances - all while retaining original dimensions and integrating seamlessly with the vehicle's OEM system! In many cases, solutions require fitment under small OEM wheel sizes for originality or to meet racing regulations and this is accomplished successfully on many models such as the older Alfas where a larger rotor and even a 4-piston pot caliper all still fit under a 15" wheel!

On newer models, the modern wheels are huge anyway and it doesn't matter as much. For vehicles with larger wheels, the performance and cost advantages can increase exponentially.
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Full-Race 6-Speed Getrag 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; 1993 155 TS 2.0; 1999 24 Valve 3.0 916 GTV; 1995 164Q; 1987 Milano Verde; 1966 GTV Stepnose

Last edited by junglejustice; 03-16-2019 at 11:37 AM.
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post #2 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-16-2019, 11:20 AM Thread Starter
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One of the greatest advantages to GiroDisc performance brake solutions - especially for performance models equipped with carbon-ceramic brake options - is cold / street performance and cost. Carbon-ceramic brakes are NOT known for their cold street performance (or for their low cost.) We hear it frequently - the high cost of replacement and the accelerated wear of carbon-ceramic equipped models is staggering!

On the Giulia Quadrifoglios which are tracked, we also see very uneven "tapered" wear patterns to the pads - eroding their safe and serviceable lifespan very quickly! In the Porsche community for example, for years, Group 2 Motorsports has helped owners of PCCB (Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake) optioned cars such as 996 Turbos for example, by removing the PCCBs, the owners placing them into storage and driving the duration of their ownership on the GiroDisc package. At the end of their ownership, the carbon-ceramic brakes are reinstalled and the vehicle is sold with the OEM brake setup installed - or at least - included with the sale of the vehicle.

During ownership (and while operating on the GiroDisc solution), owners of these models report better cold / street performance, equal or better track performance (especially during early cold laps), lower replacement / operating costs, lower wheel dust levels, noise reduction and other benefits. Most significant perhaps is an increase in cold / street performance and cost! When the floating rotor discs wear out, we simply replace them with new rings and floating hardware at a fraction of the cost and the customer is good to go!

Group 2 Motorsports has made a significant investment in GiroDisc inventory and because they are located here in Washington State as well, most items are available same or next day for local installation and same-day for out-of-state shipping!

Feel free to contact us via the shop line at 206.378.0900
By email via [email protected]
You may also follow us on Instagram here - https://www.instagram.com/group2motorsports/
Or on Facebook here - https://www.facebook.com/group2motorsports/
Attached Images
  

Full-Race 6-Speed Getrag 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; 1993 155 TS 2.0; 1999 24 Valve 3.0 916 GTV; 1995 164Q; 1987 Milano Verde; 1966 GTV Stepnose

Last edited by junglejustice; 03-16-2019 at 11:34 AM.
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post #3 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-16-2019, 11:52 AM
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Why do you that Giulia brakes are not good? Is you replacement brakes better than Brembo? If they are better how can you prove it? Can you for instance post the measurements of 100-0 braking distance 10 times in a row of your brakes and stock brakes? What is the stopping distance from 200 or 250 km/h 10 times in a row?
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post #4 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-16-2019, 08:08 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Pershyn View Post
Why do you that Giulia brakes are not good? Is you replacement brakes better than Brembo? If they are better how can you prove it? Can you for instance post the measurements of 100-0 braking distance 10 times in a row of your brakes and stock brakes? What is the stopping distance from 200 or 250 km/h 10 times in a row?
Hi Max, what I typed is still there for you to re-to read, rather than just scan over.

I never said that the "Giulia brakes are not good" - I simply pointed out the excessive leading-edge wear that we are seeing in pads from carbon-ceramic equipped models which are being tracked. I also discussed the known, lower cold / street performance of carbon-ceramic brakes versus well-engineered iron rotors and appropriately-selected pads. My post(s) also discuss the significant cost advantages of replacing the GiroDisc rings as they wear - and storing the carbon brakes until the vehicle is sold.

Unless cost is not a factor for you - in which case you are in a very rare 1% category of Alfa owners.

Am I getting sucked into the classic "Alfa engineers know best" argument, or am I simply bumping up against another "Brembo is the best in the world" perception here...? Besides, we are not replacing the Brembo calipers - only the hats, rotors, pads and floating hardware.

Anyway, based on our past experience with GiroDisc products on many other cars these past 15+ years, it will be easy to improve on the brakes in the base 4-cylinder Giulias. The co-cast "base" rotors on the Q-models are quite amazing though and the cost is significantly lower than the top of the line CCM brakes on the Q models, so we have focused our efforts on a replacement option for the top-top CCM-optioned cars as a first release.

Full-Race 6-Speed Getrag 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; 1993 155 TS 2.0; 1999 24 Valve 3.0 916 GTV; 1995 164Q; 1987 Milano Verde; 1966 GTV Stepnose
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post #5 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-23-2019, 12:02 PM
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I'd be curious John what the weight savings are per complete rotor, hats, pads and floating hardware for 2.0L models.

Front:
Brake rotor on 280Hp model weights in at 20.65lbs
Brake rotors- 5.56lbs
Brake clips- 0.19lbs
adapter bracket-1.39lbs

27.79 Lbs total from info I have gathered. Is there a significant drop in this? If so it would be a very nice upgrade for sure since stock wheels are fairly heavy.

Thx John


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post #6 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-02-2019, 09:45 AM
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No info on weight savings. Girodisc does not email back. Oh well.


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post #7 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-02-2019, 12:22 PM
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There's not really convincing evidence that carbon ceramic brakes work well for road cars, even when tracked. If you are also using street tires your tires will give up long before your iron brakes, assuming you fit appropriately harder pads when you are on track.

Evo magazine did an interesting back to back test of otherwise identical supercharged Jaguar F Types fitted respectively with Jaguars standard iron brakes and optional carbon ceramics. The iron brakes stopped better for the first 4-5 stops and then more or less matched the carbon ceramics up to 12 consecutive stops. From 100 mph!!!

That was with street pads on the iron brakes. Admittedly the street pads "caught fire" but they stopped the car anyway.
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post #8 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-03-2019, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
There's not really convincing evidence that carbon ceramic brakes work well for road cars, even when tracked. If you are also using street tires your tires will give up long before your iron brakes, assuming you fit appropriately harder pads when you are on track.

Evo magazine did an interesting back to back test of otherwise identical supercharged Jaguar F Types fitted respectively with Jaguars standard iron brakes and optional carbon ceramics. The iron brakes stopped better for the first 4-5 stops and then more or less matched the carbon ceramics up to 12 consecutive stops. From 100 mph!!!

That was with street pads on the iron brakes. Admittedly the street pads "caught fire" but they stopped the car anyway.
Makes no sense to me both performance-wise and cost-wise. I have seen a few Q owners drop the CC brakes for standard steel brakes. If I were to upgrade my Giulia ti brakes, they would have to be significantly lighter, not drilled, slotted or dimpled. Just a solid face rotor. The drilled look great but do not perform as well. Same with slotted. I am not one to go along with the slots refreshing the pads, more like shaving them down faster than you need. Pads would have to be a good compromise between cold bite to hot and fluid, a high quality fluid with a high temp boil point. I do plan to track it at some point for fun but for daily driving to spirited, stock is fantastic. Next pads are going to be the Tarox Strada unless something else comes out by the time I need them.


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post #9 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-03-2019, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
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There's not really convincing evidence that carbon ceramic brakes work well for road cars, even when tracked. If you are also using street tires your tires will give up long before your iron brakes, assuming you fit appropriately harder pads when you are on track.



Evo magazine did an interesting back to back test of otherwise identical supercharged Jaguar F Types fitted respectively with Jaguars standard iron brakes and optional carbon ceramics. The iron brakes stopped better for the first 4-5 stops and then more or less matched the carbon ceramics up to 12 consecutive stops. From 100 mph!!!



That was with street pads on the iron brakes. Admittedly the street pads "caught fire" but they stopped the car anyway.
There is a simple explanation. They did not follow the heating procedure. You can open the last page of the EU Giulia QV owners manual and read how to heat carbon ceramic brakes.
Basically after 12 stops ceramic brakes only reached the correct temperature

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post #10 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-03-2019, 08:52 AM
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Makes no sense to me both performance-wise and cost-wise. I have seen a few Q owners drop the CC brakes for standard steel brakes. If I were to upgrade my Giulia ti brakes, they would have to be significantly lighter, not drilled, slotted or dimpled. Just a solid face rotor. The drilled look great but do not perform as well. Same with slotted. I am not one to go along with the slots refreshing the pads, more like shaving them down faster than you need. Pads would have to be a good compromise between cold bite to hot and fluid, a high quality fluid with a high temp boil point. I do plan to track it at some point for fun but for daily driving to spirited, stock is fantastic. Next pads are going to be the Tarox Strada unless something else comes out by the time I need them.
well there are good and crappy drilled, slotted, vented or carbon disc oem and aftermarket brakes calipers and systems. one have to be weary of grand statements.

i had a pair of 930 cars brakes with drilled holes and they are fine because the holes are casted in before chauffeuring compared to the aftermarket stuff that are just drilled. for two decades the air cooled RS 4pots type 911/930 calipers with drilled rotors are amoungst the finest oem factory brakes to appear on a production car bar none imo

one can not evaluate the merits of brakes strictly on braking distance. thermo loading and wear are determine through long term testing. a key aspect in braking performance is the feel and modulation at the threshold. This is often subjective and important since in trail braking your car is not on a straight axis like you are performing brake test so you have to rely on feedback. straight line braking test doesn't tell you that.

ive driven on carbon brakes, great stuff since they save a lot of weight but i didnt own the car and if i did i can see why to replace them with conventional steel/iron disc due to the enormous cost

i personally have not driven giro equipped car that i can remember but i went to university for a post-baccalaureate degree specifically on vehicle research with the two founding members. one of the engineers who i personally know worked for Brembo before setting up giro. the company is the real deal being heavily involved GT racing firmaments on modern ferraris, porsches, lambos etc.. for awhile now. im actually surprised they are doing stuff for 90hp alfa 105s :-)

tarox is wonderful little know company as well. they supplied the michelotto who builds semi-factory GR 5 and endurance racers for Ferrari's since the early 80's. we had a tarox caliper and disc set up custom built for a bespoke application. great stuff , reasonably price with a long history in competition.

my 2cents
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post #11 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-03-2019, 09:01 AM
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This is the procedure. Evo magazine, after Harry Metcalfe left it, drop to a garbage level.

Preheating the carbon ceramic material brake discs
The brake discs must be warmed up to make them fully efficient. You are advised to perform the following procedure: brake nine times from 80 mph (130 km/h) to 18 mph (30 km/h) with deceleration equal to 0.7g (the longitudinal acceleration value is shown on the instrument panel display by setting RACE mode and selecting the “Performance” page) with 20 second intervals between brake applications; keep the car at a speed comprised between 36 mph (60 km/h) and 60 mph (100 km/h) and do not brake for 240 seconds to allow the brakes to cool down; then brake three times from 120 mph (200 km/h) to 18 mph (30 km/h) with deceleration equal to 1.1g (ABS operation) with 30 second intervals between brake applications; keep the car at a speed comprised between 36 mph (60 km/h) and 60 mph (100 km/h) and do not brake for 300 seconds to allow the brakes to cool down.

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post #12 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-03-2019, 12:13 PM
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harry metcalfe, you mean that prehistoric fella that does youtubes vids now? just kidding i luv that guy.

dont buy a jag... lol i used to work there in Coventry. the procedure you mention is not too different from what i do when i swap out street pads for track pads on iron disc. am i the only one here that does this these days to bed in pads properly?

some of these disc and caliper packages housed in these supercar large wheels are ginormous. at over 16inch or more, the disc themselves have become bigger in diameter than a 105 wheel and more than twice as heavy if they were conventional cast iron. the weight savings and inertia reduction are substantial. not so much on a pokerchip size 105 disc.
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Last edited by davbert; 05-03-2019 at 12:21 PM.
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post #13 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-03-2019, 01:21 PM
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Considering that most people use their Giulia as an everyday car, with occasional track days at most, I think this confirms that the CC brakes are a useless upgrade for 99.99% of owners out there.

I do not know of anywhere outside a race track where I could brake nine times from 80 to 18 without causing an accident and break multiple laws. So, on the street, the CC brakes will nearly always be sub-optimal.


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Originally Posted by Max Pershyn View Post
This is the procedure. Evo magazine, after Harry Metcalfe left it, drop to a garbage level.

Preheating the carbon ceramic material brake discs
The brake discs must be warmed up to make them fully efficient. You are advised to perform the following procedure: brake nine times from 80 mph (130 km/h) to 18 mph (30 km/h) with deceleration equal to 0.7g (the longitudinal acceleration value is shown on the instrument panel display by setting RACE mode and selecting the “Performance” page) with 20 second intervals between brake applications; keep the car at a speed comprised between 36 mph (60 km/h) and 60 mph (100 km/h) and do not brake for 240 seconds to allow the brakes to cool down; then brake three times from 120 mph (200 km/h) to 18 mph (30 km/h) with deceleration equal to 1.1g (ABS operation) with 30 second intervals between brake applications; keep the car at a speed comprised between 36 mph (60 km/h) and 60 mph (100 km/h) and do not brake for 300 seconds to allow the brakes to cool down.

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post #14 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-03-2019, 01:46 PM
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Brakes are heat generators, that's all they do. Kinetic energy is converted to heat.

Drilling brakes (or casting them with holes) reduces the capability of the disc to absorb heat, so they get hotter, faster.

Hotter brakes are more efficient at dissipating heat. That's not always a good thing. For road driving it's a very bad thing.

The issue is with achieving the optimal operating range for the pad material.

Pick your pads to match your driving requirement. Your discs don't matter very much. What matters is using pads that will brake effectively over the temperature range you expect the car to experience. Same for tires.

Carbon ceramics brakes on any road car are just a fashion statement. Like very large wheels, almost all spoilers and often those very expensive tires.

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post #15 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-03-2019, 03:57 PM
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well there are good and crappy drilled, slotted, vented or carbon disc oem and aftermarket brakes calipers and systems. one have to be weary of grand statements.

i had a pair of 930 cars brakes with drilled holes and they are fine because the holes are casted in before chauffeuring compared to the aftermarket stuff that are just drilled. for two decades the air cooled RS 4pots type 911/930 calipers with drilled rotors are amoungst the finest oem factory brakes to appear on a production car bar none imo

one can not evaluate the merits of brakes strictly on braking distance. thermo loading and wear are determine through long term testing. a key aspect in braking performance is the feel and modulation at the threshold. This is often subjective and important since in trail braking your car is not on a straight axis like you are performing brake test so you have to rely on feedback. straight line braking test doesn't tell you that.

ive driven on carbon brakes, great stuff since they save a lot of weight but i didnt own the car and if i did i can see why to replace them with conventional steel/iron disc due to the enormous cost

i personally have not driven giro equipped car that i can remember but i went to university for a post-baccalaureate degree specifically on vehicle research with the two founding members. one of the engineers who i personally know worked for Brembo before setting up giro. the company is the real deal being heavily involved GT racing firmaments on modern ferraris, porsches, lambos etc.. for awhile now. im actually surprised they are doing stuff for 90hp alfa 105s :-)

tarox is wonderful little know company as well. they supplied the michelotto who builds semi-factory GR 5 and endurance racers for Ferrari's since the early 80's. we had a tarox caliper and disc set up custom built for a bespoke application. great stuff , reasonably price with a long history in competition.

my 2cents
Thanks for the input. I'd be interested in Giro but neither the company themselves nor G2 respond to emails about the product. I guess they don't really care much to sell them. I have sent 3 emails each. I give up.


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