Performance Replacement Brakes for Giulia Models; - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-03-2019, 04:17 PM
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jason

i dont blame you... though some of these guys are small operations without a dedicated person to answer emails and are perhaps busy. im going through that right now waiting for my suspension pieces and steering rack to be shipped back to me after 7 months from Ca and AZ

best of luck!
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post #17 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-03-2019, 04:20 PM
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Brakes are heat generators, that's all they do. Kinetic energy is converted to heat.

Drilling brakes (or casting them with holes) reduces the capability of the disc to absorb heat, so they get hotter, faster.

Hotter brakes are more efficient at dissipating heat. That's not always a good thing. For road driving it's a very bad thing.

The issue is with achieving the optimal operating range for the pad material.

Pick your pads to match your driving requirement. Your discs don't matter very much. What matters is using pads that will brake effectively over the temperature range you expect the car to experience. Same for tires.

Carbon ceramics brakes on any road car are just a fashion statement. Like very large wheels, almost all spoilers and often those very expensive tires.
So the Alfa is nearly all fashion! Typical Italians! Must have been designed by Dolce and Gabbana or Versace.

I beg to differ on the rear spoilers on the giulia and tires comment. Wheels comment, depends on what you are doing really. 19" is slightly excessive but not overly. Adds a lot more weight. 18" is a better setup. If I can ever find a good looking 18" wheel for this car, I'd move to those. These 19" are heavy. 18" is the norm in DTM these days. in 1993, the 155 V6Ti DTM car used both 19 and 18" wheels. I know this is not a daily driver but it gives some idea that 19" wheels are not necessarily USELESS or Fashion statements especially with proper sized tires. I dumped the 225 tires that wrapped the wheels from the factory and went with a larger tire, larger sidewalls. I prefer this over the stretched tire.

Spoilers...

"The vast majority of spoilers out there don't do anything – you don't get any bang for your money," says Dr. Martin Agelin-Chaab, assistant professor in automotive engineering at the University of Ontario Institute of Technology (UOIT) in Oshawa, Ont. "They only work if they're properly installed, and even then, they only work at speeds of at least 100 km/h or more."

Spoilers are supposed to spoil aerodynamic lift: the force that wants to pull your car off the ground. They're supposed to push your car onto the road.

"Usually, spoilers are intended to increase downforce – they deflect air upward, which creates a downward force on the car," says Dr. Ron Miller, an engineering professor at Carleton University who has worked on race-car design. "This helps stick the tires to the road to give the car better grip and therefore better handling in cornering."

Spoilers can also reduce drag, Agelin-Chaab says. And the less air resistance your car has, the less gas you'll have to burn. But you probably won't notice the difference driving the kids to soccer, unless you're taking the highway.

"At 120 km/h or more, 50 per cent of fuel goes to combat drag," he says. "So, at high speeds, reducing the drag even slightly can have a huge impact on fuel economy."

But a spoiler only works if it's cutting through the air at the correct angle, Agelin-Chaab adds.

"Factory-installed spoilers on higher-end sports cars are very effective. Many others out there probably aren't so effective – and some car manufacturers even say their spoilers are for looks only." I'd argue these are higher end vehicles especially the Q and the design of the rear deck spoiler

Properly installing a spoiler requires at least three hours in a wind tunnel (UOIT's costs $700 an hour), Agelin-Chaab says. If you're installing one yourself, you can measure the drag on your vehicle doing a coastdown test.


While a spoiler might not help your car's handling or fuel economy, it can't hurt, right? Sorry to be a spoilsport, but a badly installed spoiler could mess with the airflow around your car. "Since it was not part of the aerodynamic design of the car, a spoiler may or may not interact correctly with the flow around the vehicle to improve things," Miller says. "It can even make things worse."

A badly installed spoiler can give the rear wheels too much grip, causing understeer.

"It can make the car more reluctant to turn as the straight rear wheels tend to overrule the turned, less gripping, front ones," he says.


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post #18 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-03-2019, 04:24 PM
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jason

i dont blame you... though some of these guys are small operations without a dedicated person to answer emails and are perhaps busy. im going through that right now waiting for my suspension pieces and steering rack to be shipped back to me after 7 months from Ca and AZ

best of luck!
Thanks Dave. If I can help, let me know? Good luck as well. I don't mind not spending the money.
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post #19 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-03-2019, 04:52 PM
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Just a reminder that stopping distances are determined by the tires, not the brakes. As long as the brakes can lock all of the wheels, or activate the ABS fully on all four wheels, then they are sufficient.

Otherwise, upgrading of brakes is an exercise in heat management.

https://www.apcautotech.com/getmedia...c-8-2018_1.pdf


Road car spoilers are largely decorative primarily because effective speeds for downforce generation are very high indeed. Two important functions for road car spoilers: front chin spoilers reduce front end lift at high speeds, 160 km/hr plus as long as the ride height is not too high so the air gap under the spoiler is only a few inches, and rear lip spoilers reduce drag by quite a bit improving fuel economy through the Kamm effect.

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post #20 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-03-2019, 06:13 PM
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Just a reminder that stopping distances are determined by the tires, not the brakes. As long as the brakes can lock all of the wheels, or activate the ABS fully on all four wheels, then they are sufficient.

Otherwise, upgrading of brakes is an exercise in heat management.

Road car spoilers are largely decorative primarily because effective speeds for downforce generation are very high indeed. Two important functions for road car spoilers: front chin spoilers reduce front end lift at high speeds, 160 km/hr plus as long as the ride height is not too high so the air gap under the spoiler is only a few inches, and rear lip spoilers reduce drag by quite a bit improving fuel economy through the Kamm effect.
What do you think of the rear diffuser on the Q? Decorative as well?

Those fins help take advantage of Bernoullis principle and draw the car towards the ground. It shortens the space available for the air to pass through thus accelerating the airflow reducing pressure, resulting in downforce gains.

Also I am referring to the OEM carbon fiber Quad re-spoiler, not anything else and you are referring to "road" spoilers. I suppose this is similar to Toyota building the 4runner for off-roading when most don't off-road. But for the TRD engineers, they build the car for the 10% who do. If you don't, it's just another SUV.

I was on the fence with the rear spoiler as I preferred the built in spoiler off the trunk lid. It is a nice built in one. From what I know and from what I have read this OEM spoiler.aerodynamics, this one is fairly functional both in the aspect of spoiling the air/creating downforce as well as reducing drag.

I opted for the carbon fiber version seen below. I felt the front aerodynamics were as good as they get for a street vehicle.

Of course I realize the spoiler is for looks as well but this one serves a function. With the way this car can get up to high speeds (and for the most part even at 50mph the spoiler functions) it can help with stability at higher.

"Just a reminder that stopping distances are determined by the tires, not the brakes. As long as the brakes can lock all of the wheels, or activate the ABS fully on all four wheels, then they are sufficient. "

No reminder needed. I feel this is a contradiction in what you have posted prior. Stating high performance tires are a waste of money. "Carbon ceramics brakes on any road car are just a fashion statement. Like very large wheels, almost all spoilers and often those very expensive tires."

So if stopping distances are determined by tires but expensive tires are a fashion statement why do those fashion statements always typically stop better? I am running those expensive fashionable dolce & gabbana tires.

"The MICHELIN Pilot Sport 4 S takes only 33.66m to brake from 100 km / h to a complete stop. Even the best of its direct competitors takes nearly a meter more (+0,83m). On a wet track, 27.73 m is all the distance needed for the Michelin Pilot Sport 4 S to brake from 80 km / h to 0. This shows it once again as the best at almost 2.5m (+2,41m) shorter than the worst performer.

Wear tests conducted by the Dekra Test Center demonstrated that the new Michelin Pilot Sport 4 S has the best longevity in its class. It is also one of the first tires in its category to get an A rating on the European labelling scale (19 inch tire) in braking distance on wet surfaces. This label is meant to inform customers of the performance of the tires and also gives them information on the energy efficiency of the tire and its road noise level. The Michelin Pilot Sport 4 S also set a new milestone when it comes to the rolling resistance as two-thirds of the range are graded C.
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post #21 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-03-2019, 07:23 PM
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Street cars are nowhere near low enough for a diffuser to work. Bernoulli's principle is the explanation for the Venturi effect the diffuser is supposed to create. It doesn't.

The only trunk lid spoiler that can work on a street car is the lip type. Wings with supposedly effective slots are purely cosmetic. The trunk lid lip type spoiler is a variety of Gurney flap. It reduces drag by using turbulent air to mimic a teardrop body shape. Turbulent drag is higher than the form drag of the theoretical teardrop shape but skin friction is eliminated. The net result is a reduction of total drag. You also get a taller trunk and a much shorter car.

High performance tires are a waste of money on most North American roads because they never get hot enough to deliver the grip you're paying extra for. Ultra high performance all seasons are now the way to go unless you drive frequently on very twisty roads or track the car. I'd be interested to see the first cold stop performance of the Pilot Sport 4S against the A/S 3+.

Road cars rarely experience the second hard consecutive stop, let alone the 20th you really need to get your money's worth out of the top performing tires and brakes.

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post #22 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-03-2019, 11:37 PM
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Considering that most people use their Giulia as an everyday car, with occasional track days at most, I think this confirms that the CC brakes are a useless upgrade for 99.99% of owners out there.
For everyday people AR offers 44B option for Giulia - big brakes kit. 330 x 28 front, 320 x 22 rear ventilated vs 305 x 28 and 292 x 22 ventilated. I think in North America all 2.0 cars have this option.

QV has 360 x 350 brakes
https://www.brembo.com/en/company/ne...a-romeo-giulia
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post #23 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-04-2019, 03:08 AM
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Good to have effective brakes, however for rapid progress on the road and track, the trick is to brake as little as possible!
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post #24 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-04-2019, 06:50 AM
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Fangio's probably apocryphal quip to his team mate when asked about the secret to faster lap times, in the very same car on the very same day.: less brakes, more accelerator.

There is no doubt the less heat you generate in your brakes and tires to deliver a given lap time the faster you are able to go. Not to mention overall race time if tire or brake wear or fade are relevant as they still are in racing.

For a road car a great deal of driving pleasure is available by seeking to drive as quickly as possible down a given road (including in "possible" the legal restrictions) while generating the lowest g forces when braking or cornering. Speed available to the usual road car on a public road is almost always limited by regulation, not the capability of the car. It's as well to remember that when deciding which car to buy and what performance options are really worthwhile. Counterintuitively, the less capable the car the more fun it can be to drive.

I am unable to resist generating maximum g forces when accelerating, however.

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post #25 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-04-2019, 08:21 AM
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Street cars are nowhere near low enough for a diffuser to work. Bernoulli's principle is the explanation for the Venturi effect the diffuser is supposed to create. It doesn't.

The only trunk lid spoiler that can work on a street car is the lip type. Wings with supposedly effective slots are purely cosmetic.

High performance tires are a waste of money on most North American roads because they never get hot enough to deliver the grip you're paying extra for. Ultra high performance all seasons are now the way to go unless you drive frequently on very twisty roads or track the car. I'd be interested to see the first cold stop performance of the Pilot Sport 4S against the A/S 3+.

Road cars rarely experience the second hard consecutive stop, let alone the 20th you really need to get your money's worth out of the top performing tires and brakes.
I am only speaking of the lip spoiler. Not wings.

Tires. Cost is not the only factor to look at. Stating "high Performance" tires are a waste of money is a very generalized statement. Yes, some expensive tires do just as well as lower priced tires or sometimes even worse. This is where research comes in. I do my research on tires and sometimes that research can fail. One thing for sure is I never let my tires get too worn. I am one for safety as well not just performance.

The Michelin PS4's that I purchased were no more expensive than a good all-season. I paid $947.00 for all 4 tires including shipping of around $65

If I went with: Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ in the sizes I have, I would have paid $789.00 with shipping. A savings of $178.00
I have used the A/S 3 before. Fantastic tire. Any better than the 4S? Can't say yet.

I will try to find stopping distances for both cold stopping. I'd be interested too.

Again as mentioned. The tires, the rear lip spoiler, diffusers etc is all for the 10% of the time. On the track or at high speeds or on curvy roads etc... Don't worry, we won't go into lowering springs...that is clearly a waste of money and destroys cars suspension systems especially these giulias.


I like this guy, he does his research. There are more factors involved than just cost.
Why Expensive Tires Aren't Always Worth The Money - Digg


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post #26 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-04-2019, 08:31 AM
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Quick search.

Michelin A/S 3

113.9 feet to stop Dry/Cold, 60-0 (I believe) Source: https://www.motortrend.com/news/mich...e-test-307753/

Michelin 4S
Averaged: 110.4 (62-0) Source: https://on-sitetires.com/blog/view/m...emselves-again
60-0 might be less.

In this case maybe not a huge difference.

I do know that the A/S 3 that is slightly worn does not perform well in light snow or wet. Again there are other factors to tires besides just stopping distance and cost. I mean looks are at the top of the list!!!

Anyway, back to the giro brakes or brakes in general. Don't want to side track John's original post.


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post #27 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-04-2019, 09:07 AM
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I would advise you to check European tire tests. Do not follow their opinion but try to find the tire the best fit your climate and roads.
Tyre reviews, tests and ratings - Tyre Reviews
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post #28 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-04-2019, 09:28 AM
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I am only speaking of the lip spoiler. Not wings.

Tires. Cost is not the only factor to look at. Stating "high Performance" tires are a waste of money is a very generalized statement. Yes, some expensive tires do just as well as lower priced tires or sometimes even worse. This is where research comes in. I do my research on tires and sometimes that research can fail. One thing for sure is I never let my tires get too worn. I am one for safety as well not just performance.

The Michelin PS4's that I purchased were no more expensive than a good all-season. I paid $947.00 for all 4 tires including shipping of around $65

If I went with: Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ in the sizes I have, I would have paid $789.00 with shipping. A savings of $178.00
I have used the A/S 3 before. Fantastic tire. Any better than the 4S? Can't say yet.

I will try to find stopping distances for both cold stopping. I'd be interested too.

Again as mentioned. The tires, the rear lip spoiler, diffusers etc is all for the 10% of the time. On the track or at high speeds or on curvy roads etc... Don't worry, we won't go into lowering springs...that is clearly a waste of money and destroys cars suspension systems especially these giulias.


I like this guy, he does his research. There are more factors involved than just cost.
Why Expensive Tires Aren't Always Worth The Money - Digg
Ive been in 5 different oem/race car wind tunnels, 2 with rolling ground planes and operated one myself. Having developing bodywork and spoilers with the aid of CFD software that monitors, air speed, pressure and volume, I wouldn’t pay much attention to the opinion that spoilers , wings, diffuser are only cosmetic. It may have been true 35 yrs ago but certainly not today.

You be surprised how much attention is paid to airflow. From the onset the flow is managed on the car in nearly all aspects, through the ductings, radiators, suspension, wheel wells, underbody, exhaust all part of an aero system. Trip strips and divergence are disguised in side mirrors, pillars, head and taillights are designed to guide the airflow as well And this is only the minimal aero development on mundane vehicles yet alone performance vehicles.

And yes spoilers and diffuser do work not to the level for massive downforce as expected to a ground effects level but for axle balance and lift/drag reduction. Just ask the guys that slid down the autobahn on their rooftops on the gen 1 Audi TT. :-). A simple lip spoiler appeared on all the cars shortly afterwards to cure the excessive lift. As for stand off wings... they are massively effective though may be a compromise in other areas for a street car. To suggest anything else is plain silly or misinformed
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post #29 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-04-2019, 09:38 AM
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Ive been in 5 different oem/race car wind tunnels, 2 with rolling ground planes and operated one myself. Having developing bodywork and spoilers with the aid of CFD software that monitors, air speed, pressure and volume, I wouldn’t pay much attention to the opinion that spoilers , wings, diffuser are only cosmetic. It may have been true 35 yrs ago but certainly not today.

You be surprised how much attention is paid to airflow. From the onset the flow is managed on the car in nearly all aspects, through the ductings, radiators, suspension, wheel wells, underbody, exhaust all part of an aero system. Trip strips and divergence are disguised in side mirrors, pillars, head and taillights are designed to guide the airflow as well And this is only the minimal aero development on mundane vehicles yet alone performance vehicles.

And yes spoilers and diffuser do work not to the level for massive downforce as expected to a ground effects level but for axle balance and lift/drag reduction. Just ask the guys that slid down the autobahn on their rooftops on the gen 1 Audi TT. :-). A simple lip spoiler appeared on all the cars shortly afterwards to cure the excessive lift. As for stand off wings... they are massively effective though may be a compromise in other areas for a street car. To suggest anything else is plain silly or misinformed
Yup. My father was an aerospace engineer (General Dynamics/Convair -1955-1996), if the spoiler is done right it works, even low speeds, such as 50mph (not verbatim). I can't imagine AR spending all this money on R&D of spoilers, to diffusers to side skirt design in wind tunnels if it were just for looks. Whats the point of the small spoiler on the rear side next to the rear lamps? They made a big deal about this little, almost nothing piece of the aerodynamics.

Yes, I remember that Audi tt video. lol. I have seen a Merc. do the same thing around the same time.

Thanks for the comments.
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post #30 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-04-2019, 09:46 AM
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Cool, my neighbor in SD worked at convair too I think. He had old photos of the b58 hustler up in his home.
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