Giulia DNA - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 07:28 AM
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I also tend to think that driving a manual shift (analogue) car can make you a more alert driver, as you have to pay more attention to what you are doing. Thus my preference to not use cruise control.
To drive a manual shift requires that you remain connected to the car and the process of car control. Driving faster has a similar effect as long as you accept the added responsibility that comes with higher speeds.

Another insidious degrader of car control skills comes from traction and stability controls. Handy those are, especially traction control with an automatic since the absence of a clutch eliminates an important driver input to wheelspin control, but they also make you lazy especially in poor traction situations when the opposite is required. Awd can have a similar effect by masking the difference between traction for acceleration or cornering and traction available for hard braking.

Stability control is particularly handy in snow or on ice but I caution everyone that reliance on the computers can get quite dangerous unless one remains alert to actual road conditions. I have similar concerns about automatic emergency braking, active cruise control and lane keeping steering assist. Handy features they may be but use of them degrades driver attention and eventually driver competence. I am reminded of this every time I switch from my Jaguar to my Alfa (which has abs as the only driver aid) . What worries me a little is when that refresher is no longer an option, when all cars have semi autonomous driver aids.

Unless true AI control of fully autonomous driverless cars becomes commonplace (which would be never, btw) all of these driver aids have the potential to degrade driving skills rather than assist them.

Every driving enthusiast prefers switching off these driver aids when pressing on. And this is the case even though such aids improve driving performance measurably, which is why racing rules routinely ban these.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
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Last edited by Michael Smith; 02-19-2019 at 07:32 AM.
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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 07:39 AM
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This is my opinion only.

I appreciate all the purist old-school preferences (I am one as well) here but regardless if this is "aesthetics' this transmission is still a blast to drive. I do also appreciate new technology at the same time. I love my analogue and manipulated software with some things. Not music!!!! lol
I have driven a 5 speed 164 for 22 years, Driven Milanos, spiders and 105 Giulia's. I appreciate those cars for what they are.

I know a lot of you don't appreciate technology (haha) but this is what it is, the future is not going to go back to 100% analogue. Sorry guys! Looks like some may be driving older cars for as long as you can keep them going.

Micheal, have you driven a new Giulia? Logging some time in it? Just curious as I do appreciate all your input but without really owning/driving it, it becomes more theory based on vehicle specs/technology. My guess is the giulia would still give you a big smile on your face.

Now do I prefer analogue? Yes. For sure. 100%. The braking is a bit weird but I am use to it now, acts similar to air brakes really. The throttle is also delayed but with a pedal software it's very much like analogue, close enough. I am very happy with the car. It's stunning to look at, AMAZING to drive and for all intents and purposes the Giulia is still an Alfa. I miss my 164 but for me it was time for new. When it's time for another, it will be older, Giulia 105 older. Best of the past and present.


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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 08:00 AM
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When i picked up my car the Sales director told me the D is 100% N 80% and A 60% of the power. Is it true? that i don t know but i have an app and a OBD bluetooth readers and timed the car on few shot, unfortunately i didn't screenshot properly the N time but it was in between. Here are the difference between the D and the A.

Don't trust the 1/4 miles i had to slow down. The open stretch without other cars where i did it is not too long.
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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 12:37 PM
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I've driven both Giulias. Great cars. The Ti is the one to buy imho. It was on our list but we bought a mini instead because it was so much smaller. Alfa really needs a proper Giulietta along the same lines as the Giulia. Better that than a Giulia Coupe imho.

The ZF 8 spd automatic is the best transmission for the money anywhere. I've also driven the DCT box in two McLarens and that transmission is also excellent but I suspect pretty pricey. I've driven all three VWAG DCT, the VW, the Audi and the PDK Porsche version. Not as impressed by those. Also the DCT in the Nissan GT R which is excellent. Unobtrusive in normal driving and nicely crisp when pressing on, without delivering thumpy shifts. Very nice.

I've driven the excellent Lexus 6 spd automatic in the ISF and their more pedestrian versions in the 250/350 IS and GS cars. Very good gearboxes. Probably by Aisin since Toyota owns a piece of Aisan.

The Aisin 6 spd automatic in the Mini is excellent also for that price point.

As for differences between D, N and A in the Giulia, those must involve deliberate reductions in performance chosen by Alfa for marketing reasons. The engine is obviously fully capable of delivering 100% in all three modes as is the gearbox.

While I can just understand reducing performance for fuel economy reasons (although in North America that's pretty much pointless) and possibly for a desire for a bit more refinement and a little less breathless puppy you sometimes get from a dynamic or sport setting, really I just drive in normal mode, normally. I only rarely bother with dynamic or Sport on public roads.
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Last edited by Michael Smith; 02-21-2019 at 03:51 PM.
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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-20-2019, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
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I've driven both Giulias. Great cars. The Ti is the one to buy imho. It was on our list but we bought a mini instead because it was so much smaller. Alfa really needs a proper Giulietta along the same lines as the Giulia. Better that than a Giulia Coupe imho.

The ZF 8 spd automatic is the best transmission for the money anywhere. I've also driven the DCT box in two McLarens and that transmission is also excellent but I suspect pretty pricey. I've driven all three VWAG DCT, the VW, the Audi and the PDK Porsche version. Not as impressed by those.

I've driven the excellent Lexus 6 spd automatic in the ISF and their more pedestrian versions in the 250/350 IS and GS cars. Very good gearboxes.

The Aisin 6 spd automatic in the Mini is excellent also for that price point.

As for differences between D, N and A in the Giulia, those must involve deliberate reductions in performance chosen by Alfa for marketing reasons. The engine is obviously fully capable of delivering 100% in all three modes as is the gearbox.

While I can just understand reducing performance for fuel economy reasons (although in North America that's pretty much pointless) and possibly for a desire for a bit more refinement and a little less breathless puppy you sometimes get from a dynamic or sport setting, really I just drive in normal mode, normally. I only rarely bother with dynamic or Sport on public roads.
I agree ZF 8 speed is fantastic. I also have a Aisin 6 spd in my touareg. Also nice.

I suppose the faults we find in these cars are what aftermarket is all about. Not that I am huge on that anymore but it does serve a purpose and can create amazing results if done right.


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post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-21-2019, 08:30 PM
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I believe the shifts are actually quicker (not just less smooth for “aesthetic” purposes) in D than in N, in which case acceleration through the gears would be quicker. Shift speeds in A feel VERY slow.

2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia Ti Sport Q4 Performance, 2005 Aston Martin Vanquish S, 2009 Aston Martin V8 Vantage, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2007 Jaguar XJ8, 2018 Audi Q7 (wife's)
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post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-21-2019, 08:31 PM
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It should be considerably faster with improved throttle response and shift times
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post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-22-2019, 07:19 AM
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Shift time for the ZF 8 spd is 200 milliseconds. Always.

What you perceive as quicker shifts are just harder shifts. No human can sense an elapsed time of 200 milliseconds, let alone some supposed reduction in that time.

The main "fault" in shift speed experienced with the ZF 8 spd relates to its ability to skipshift two or even four ratios in one shift. Those shifts seem to take longer even though the actual shift speed is the same. The shift software is also programmed to "decide" what the driver's foot on the accelerator "means". For N the software is programmed to assume that the rate at which the accelerator is operated signals the driver's demand for torque differently to when D is selected. You will find that N mode tends to delay a downshift if the accelerator is pressed down firmly rather than suddenly. The programmers assumed the driver remains interested in fuel efficiency so holds the gear to increase torque without downshifting. For kickdown shifts from high ratios (high gear number but low numeric ratio) the software has to assess whether to skipshift or not so a delay is often experienced while the transmission "decides" whether to skipshift at all and if so how many ratios to skip. Actual shift time remains at 200 ms.

I repeat, if D appears to reduce acceleration times then Alfa has faked the performance in N mode. We know that A mode is faked from a performance perspective because of supposed fuel economy benefits. I suspect nobody in North America actually uses A.

Acceleration is proportional to vehicle mass (weight can be used for ease of comparison) and engine torque as multiplied by the gearbox and differential and reduced by wheel diameter. All the software can do is artificially degrade engine performance to produce the illusion that D is quicker than N or A. That marketing gimmickry really gets my goat if it is employed.

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post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-22-2019, 07:45 AM
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I assume 200 milliseconds is the actual shift time. Is there a difference, in D vs N vs A, in the time taken to lock the torque converter after a shift? If so, that could potentially explain why it feels Ike D shifts are faster than N shifts (and why A shifts seem to take a year (I never use A)). FWIW, and seemingly unlike many here, I prefer the feel of a smooth shift — just as I always try to achieve smooth shifts in my manual ‘box cars.

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post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-31-2019, 07:31 PM
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160 milliseconds in the ZF 8 in the Hellcat, etc in Track mode. 180...and 200 in others. Being a hydraulically actuated shift controller by a regulating solenoid that affects change to a mechanical nature, the bands, the higher pressure that decreases shift completion times decreases heat producing slippage. Torque reduction increases service life during the shift and ramps power back in to what the engineers & risk/ liability management thought would balance life and performance of not only the transmission, but the other driveline components. The result has been a performance shift close to that of a dct. Less boost dip as well with faster shift completion.
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post #26 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-01-2019, 01:19 PM
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Alfa says Q model shift time is 150 milliseconds or less than 100 depending what source you read.

http://media.fcanorthamerica.com/new...se.do?id=17382
https://www.alfaromeo.is/wp-content/...baeklingur.pdf

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post #27 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-01-2019, 02:02 PM
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Alfa says Q model shift time is 150 milliseconds or less than 100 depending what source you read.

http://media.fcanorthamerica.com/new...se.do?id=17382
https://www.alfaromeo.is/wp-content/...baeklingur.pdf
I got around to checking out the sales brochure I grabbed at the dealer. They did say 100 there.
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