New Giulia Q4 - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 30Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #16 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 12:41 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfissimo Int. View Post
First thing I am doing is dumping the tires. I am replacing with a Michelin PS. No idea what I'd get for an 'all-seaons" tire. Cinturato P7 All Season Plus, get's good reviews and does a decent job in snow.

I'd like to change the wheels for lighter ones but I have not found any I like, so for now I keep the OEM.

I can't find my link to ePER for the giulia parts. Do you have that?

I'll have a look at alignment specs US vs EU.
The latest generation of high performance all season tires are very good. The P Zero A/S Plus is the best at the moment. The Michelin version is marginally better in the dry or the heat. You no longer need summer tires to get decent grip in hot weather. All season deliver better grip below 10 C than the grippiest summer tires. On the street one hardly ever gets summer tires warm enough to deliver the grip they are designed to give, especially in North America.
Alfissimo Int. likes this.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new
Michael Smith is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 02:45 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
Alfissimo Int.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
The latest generation of high performance all season tires are very good. The P Zero A/S Plus is the best at the moment. The Michelin version is marginally better in the dry or the heat. You no longer need summer tires to get decent grip in hot weather. All season deliver better grip below 10 C than the grippiest summer tires. On the street one hardly ever gets summer tires warm enough to deliver the grip they are designed to give, especially in North America.
I agree Michael. Thanks for the tip, I will check them out, was looking at the summers but not the A/S. I think summers are more esthetic than anything.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Jason Minos


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


New: +1 619-209-0715
e-mail:admin at alfissimo.com
San Diego, CA
1989 Spider Quad. Gone
1991 White Alfa Romeo 164S Recaro, Siena, Zender.-GONE
2010 Touareg TDI
2017 Giulia Ti Sport Q4, Trofeo, Leather package(red), Staggered.
Alfissimo Int. is offline  
post #18 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 04:23 PM
PSk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga New Zealand
Posts: 11,413
Send a message via AIM to PSk Send a message via Yahoo to PSk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfissimo Int. View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk View Post
(For road cars) it's never about the performance gain as it is personalising the car.

Top Gear did a great special on this and proved hotting up a road car was pointless, money wasting process.
Pete
I agree. See above post.

Mostly Pointless! I have to see that episode to see what they are referring to.
With those terms, the giulia quad is essentially pointless as well. <img src="http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" />
One modification they did not make was to change the engine. They did tune it so it put out the correct factory hp figures, otherwise left alone.

They changed brakes, springs and shocks and tyres ... they improved the lap time by a couple of seconds (if that).

People in the know understand that you can do quick lap times in a standard car, just not many in a row as brakes will fade, tyres will wear out, hard to hot apexes lap after lap with soft suspension, etc.

What they ended up with is a more consistent lapping car that was uncomfortable ... of course.
Pete

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
156 Series 1 v6 ... and remember it's all just opinions
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSk is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #19 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
Alfissimo Int.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk View Post
One modification they did not make was to change the engine. They did tune it so it put out the correct factory hp figures, otherwise left alone.

They changed brakes, springs and shocks and tyres ... they improved the lap time by a couple of seconds (if that).

People in the know understand that you can do quick lap times in a standard car, just not many in a row as brakes will fade, tyres will wear out, hard to hot apexes lap after lap with soft suspension, etc.

What they ended up with is a more consistent lapping car that was uncomfortable ... of course.
Pete
Yup.
The 164 lowered on konis is not comfortable for the most part. I installed the OEM springs back on and it handled the road much better. There may have been more lean in corners but it held better than lowered, I did not get that terrible bump back from the suspension.

Most of the mods I will be doing are for looks (carbon fiber spoiler, nero mirrors, maybe veloce badge on fender, that's it) or personalizing. I do want a Supersprint exhaust though to make it sound a bit meatier.

I played with the 164 for 22 years and I am just not in that mode anymore. I learned a lot from that car and other alfa's I owned and lots of mods cause more issues than anything.
stefmiesterb likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Jason Minos


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


New: +1 619-209-0715
e-mail:admin at alfissimo.com
San Diego, CA
1989 Spider Quad. Gone
1991 White Alfa Romeo 164S Recaro, Siena, Zender.-GONE
2010 Touareg TDI
2017 Giulia Ti Sport Q4, Trofeo, Leather package(red), Staggered.

Last edited by Alfissimo Int.; 01-14-2019 at 12:58 PM.
Alfissimo Int. is offline  
post #20 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 07:42 PM
Del
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: seattle
Posts: 15,241
Looking through the online listings for used Giulias in my 200 mile radius area, I note that the prices for used cars is dropping as I had surmised they would, ie, low 30k for used ~15k mile 4 banger models, depending on what configuration they have.

Gives food for future thought.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
Del is offline  
post #21 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 09:00 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfissimo Int. View Post
Yup.
The 164 lowered on konis is not comfortable for the most part. I installed the OEM springs back on and it handled and road much better. There may have been more lean in corners but it held better than lowered, I did not get that terrible bump back from the suspension.

Most of the mods I will be doing are for looks or personalizing. I do want a Supersprint exhaust though to make it sound a bit meatier.

I played with the 164 for 22 years and I am just not in that mode anymore. I learned a lot from that car and other alfa's I owned and lots of mods cause more issues that anything.
Interesting thing, 155 Sport Pack had softer springs from 145 1.4 and higher tires pressure. Just these two things changed the character of the car completely

I think you can not change the sound as it turbocharged. Turbo is a natural muter, to make the sound dipper you need to eliminate a muffler.

Based on the available ePer giulia has 18 different springs

http://keyeper.pekidi.com/navi?FORCE...PARAM=LANGUAGE
Max Pershyn is offline  
post #22 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-07-2019, 07:32 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
Alfissimo Int.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Pershyn View Post
Interesting thing, 155 Sport Pack had softer springs from 145 1.4 and higher tires pressure. Just these two things changed the character of the car completely

I think you can not change the sound as it turbocharged. Turbo is a natural muter, to make the sound dipper you need to eliminate a muffler.

Based on the available ePer giulia has 18 different springs

http://keyeper.pekidi.com/navi?FORCE...PARAM=LANGUAGE
Actually the Q4 seems fine as far as suspension goes, people complain on the height. Yeah, it may be slightly higher but not by much and it does not hinder performance by any means. Looks fine to me. I know that most think you need stiffer springs and to be lower CG to have better performance, my thought is the other way around. I think that combo usually leads to worse performance and a very uncomfortable ride which leads to premature wear of components. Technology today is light years ahead of the 50's when you could cut springs to lower and the car would fair better. For the most part. Thanks for the link. I lost that link. I need to get on with Alfa again with the catalog.

Super sprint removes the front muffler and reduces the rear.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Jason Minos


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


New: +1 619-209-0715
e-mail:admin at alfissimo.com
San Diego, CA
1989 Spider Quad. Gone
1991 White Alfa Romeo 164S Recaro, Siena, Zender.-GONE
2010 Touareg TDI
2017 Giulia Ti Sport Q4, Trofeo, Leather package(red), Staggered.

Last edited by Alfissimo Int.; 01-07-2019 at 08:52 AM.
Alfissimo Int. is offline  
post #23 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-07-2019, 09:37 AM
Del
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: seattle
Posts: 15,241
"The 164 lowered on konis is not comfortable for the most part"

I used Konis on the LS and stock S springs, with no change in height, and the resulting road feel and curvy road driving is just fine, better than the S, IMO. I suspect that you are mostly correct about lowering the car too much, just makes it less compliant on the road. I sometimes think that if I came across a set of used but good Konis, I would change the S across.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
Del is offline  
post #24 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-07-2019, 11:55 AM
PSk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga New Zealand
Posts: 11,413
Send a message via AIM to PSk Send a message via Yahoo to PSk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfissimo Int. View Post
Actually the Q4 seems fine as far as suspension goes, people complain on the height. Yeah, it may be slightly higher but not by much and it does not hinder performance by any means. Looks fine to me. I know that most think you need stiffer springs and to be lower CG to have better performance, my thought is the other way around. I think that combo usually leads to worse performance and a very uncomfortable ride which leads to premature wear of components. Technology today is light years ahead of the 50's when you could cut springs to lower and the car would fair better. For the most part. Thanks for the link. I lost that link. I need to get on with Alfa again with the catalog.

Super sprint removes the front muffler and reduces the rear.
The stiffer the body shell the softer the springs can be, so as modern cars are definitely stiffer you might be right, but I'm sure dedicated track Q4's would be low and stiff and most unsuited to road work.
Pete
Alfissimo Int. likes this.

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
156 Series 1 v6 ... and remember it's all just opinions
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSk is offline  
post #25 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-07-2019, 12:24 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Subtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, B C
Posts: 6,235
Pete
Good point.
The "old" Brit cars and particularly the Morgan from the 1950s had flexible chassis with stiff, short travel suspension.
Worked well on a very smooth track.
The Giulietta was the step to a modern car with stiff, as possible, body and flexible long-travel suspension. And very well controlled.
I had a Healey 100 and an MGTF, and my sister had a TR-3. All as daily drivers.
In driving the 101 Spider I bought in 1965, the improvement in handling was "night and day". Helped by radial tires.
I used my first Super for a season of Novice Racing and put in a roll bar from a GTV and installed Koni shocks. Not adjustable.
These were too firm for general use, but I got married and didn't have the money to change the shocks.
Next was the 79 Alfetta Sports Sedan. Turbo-charged it and installed the Shankle suspension. Lowered a lot. With the Spax adjustable shocks on stiff it was good for track days. On soft OK for smooth roads, but not good on "Humpy-bumby" back roads.
The best on these roads has been the latest Super. It came to me with a "performance" suspension.
This included 1100 # springs on front which were good for the track but brutal on "B" roads.
Put on 500s on the front, Koni Reds set 1/2 firm on the front. Konis full soft at the back and removed the rear sway bar.
Outstanding!!!!!
What has been the lesson to me?
Keep the suspension close to standard stiffness----and to the standard ride height.
But it is "cool" to go for the "performance" suspension.
After all, because it is a "mod" it is bound to be better.
Isn't it?
Alfissimo Int. and Del like this.

Bob,
Avatar is the 68 Super, bought new.
Subtle is offline  
post #26 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-10-2019, 05:39 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,685
Suspension geometry in jounce (bump) is the primary variable in road vehicle handling, not ride height. The 164 was designed for 195/65 or 205/55 section tires. Those sections are not as much affected by camber change as newer fashion tires which are frankly getting ridiculous for road use. Even a 40 series tire is pretty much useless over a bumpy road and 35 is pathetically incompetent on most North American road surfaces, especially anywhere that gets deep frost winters. I note that the UK motoring press are starting to push back against mainly European makers who ignore these practicalities in the pursuit of wheels and tires as fashion statements.

To use part of one of Martin Brundle's favourite sayings the largest effect on vehicle performance is provided by changing the nut behind the wheel. For a really good illustration of this effect check out Top Gear's F1 stars in a reasonably priced car hot laps. Lewis Hamilton in particular gives a master class demonstration of what it actually takes to extract 100% out of ANY car chassis. The shot of Lewis dancing a $h!tbox car through Gambon is truly priceless stuff.


Bear in mind the actual lap is well under 2 minutes of this 8 minute video clip and Ricciardo eventually beats a later much quicker Hamilton dry lap time, itself over 1.5 seconds quicker than he did this in the wet (Lewis blames his slow wet lap on Mark Webber leaving oil on the track from a previous lap by that Aussie).

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new

Last edited by Michael Smith; 01-10-2019 at 05:53 AM.
Michael Smith is offline  
post #27 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-10-2019, 06:19 AM
Registered User
 
nealric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,008
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk View Post
(For road cars) it's never about the performance gain as it is personalising the car.

Top Gear did a great special on this and proved hotting up a road car was pointless, money wasting process.
Pete
Just throwing random tuner parts at a car is pointless, but that doesn't mean road cars can't be made quicker through tuning.

I'm not sure which segment of Top Gear you are referring to, but I seem to recall they did things like just throw a new shock and spring package and a noisemaker straw (cold air intake). It's a 100% true that just slapping on an aftermarket suspension and intake/exhaust mods is not going to do much of anything (other than make the car noisy and less comfortable). Likewise, swapping out brake rotors for fancy looking ones or going to a larger wheel is likely to hurt performance. But the following can make an enormous difference:

Tires: Going from a mediocre all-season to a 200 treadwear performance tire like the Bridgestone RE71R in as wide as will fit under the car is transformative. If you live in the South, temps aren't a problem. However, I will admit that I personally only use these for autocross/track day and swap wheels for daily driving.

Brakes: Most road cars need a high temp fluid and brake pad swap if you are going to play on the track from time to time.

Suspension: OEM suspensions are indeed quite good, and swapping out springs and shocks is generally unnecessary until you are getting into last ounce performance. Where suspension mods can make a HUGE difference is adding full alignment capabilities through things like adjustable control arms and camber plates- what is needed to get a true performance alignment will depend on the vehicle. Most OEM suspensions are designed to understeer and maximize tire life under daily driving conditions- this is safer for the average driver. To get the car more neutral or even slightly oversteer biased (useful if you autocross), you can stiffen up the rear with a bigger swaybar. More negative camber than the factory provides is usually necessary if you don't want to cook the outside if your tires in performance driving conditions. If you are looking for every last ounce of performance, a high-end coilover setup (not your cut-rate "stance" bro ebay special) from companies like Ohlin will improve damping and allow better corner weighting than allowed from the factory.

Power: OEM tunes have to take into account long-term reliability and emissions controls. If you throw those things out the window (or at least de-emphasize), there's no doubt you can get a lot more power- especially when you are talking about turbocharged motors where boost parameters can be changed. Throttle response can also be sharpened quite a bit, as most OEMs often intentionally introduce subtle delays for emissions purposes. Tunes for the Giulia seem to still be in the relatively early stages, but on most similar motors, 50-100hp is very possible for a tuned car with any intake an exhaust restrictions removed (OEM downpipes are usually they key restrictions). Larger turbochargers often allow 100-200 additional HP, but often require stronger internals and move the powerband up the rev range and introduce additional turbo lag.

Of course, most of these are pointless if you never autocross or track the car (and if you autocross, you have to take classing into consideration). However, you can modify a car to perform better on the track without significantly compromising the street manners for a dual-duty car. My personal daily driver (a Subaru STI) was transformed by the following modifications: downsized and lighter wheels (took away 40lbs unsprung weight), performance alignment (max negative camber, zero toe), wider 200TW summer tires, larger rear swaybar. Just these items reduced autocross run times by 2-3 seconds over the bone stock vehicle (around a 5% improvement). That doesn't sound like much, but the feel is also so much different- turn in is sharper, less trail braking required, and I no longer feel like I am fighting the car at the limit. Could Lewis Hamilton hand me a beat down in a much slower car? No doubt, but I do enjoy the car more after making the changes and it has allowed me to be competitive in local autocross competitions where before it was hopeless.

Last edited by nealric; 01-10-2019 at 06:23 AM.
nealric is offline  
post #28 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-10-2019, 06:54 AM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Subtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, B C
Posts: 6,235
"noisemaker straw"
Outstanding description.

Bob,
Avatar is the 68 Super, bought new.
Subtle is offline  
post #29 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-10-2019, 04:50 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,685

Top gear hopped up a Renault Avantime. It worked. Sort of.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new

Last edited by Michael Smith; 01-10-2019 at 05:07 PM.
Michael Smith is offline  
post #30 of 57 (permalink) Old 01-10-2019, 05:14 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,685
Turning circle for the 164 is not materially different to the new Giulia (a smaller car inside) or the similar SAAB 9000. Stated turning circle is larger when the bodywork is included (wall to wall) than when the wheels are used (curb to curb) so it can be tricky to directly compare published numbers.

Although turning radius (the technically more accurate term) technically depends on maximum steering arm deflection (steering angle) the limits are set more by vehicle width than engineering issues with steering angles. Wider cars have larger turning radii with a given maximum steering angle capability. All the tight turning cars are also narrow, inside and out. The 164 is very roomy inside due to its width.

References to wheelbase affecting turning radii fail to take into account the fact that it is the inner front wheel steering angle limit that determines turning radius and the width of the vehicle must be added to whatever radius can be achieved by that inner steered wheel.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new

Last edited by Michael Smith; 01-10-2019 at 05:33 PM.
Michael Smith is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome