Alfa Giulia in quality survey - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 08:09 PM
Del
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So no problems with the four banger Ti, but some sort of problem with the Quad? They detuned the Quad a little to make it run correctly, but not with the verve you thought you had purchased and experienced? Is that what you are saying? What were the changes in the driving experiences you say made the car not the one you bought?

Did you discuss this with the factory, not a local dealer? I've done this with Alfa in the past with an earlier model, and they bent over backwards to help, solving my problem?

Have you given thought that you might have rushed into the decision to bail completely? I mean, I know of several people with higher end Japanese cars who have ended up distressed with their dealerships as well. It does happen. Eventually it can usually get worked out.

Regardless, sorry to hear that you are bailing out of the marque. I've found it and the dealers I've dealt with through the last 4+ decades mostly a decent pleasure, even with the occasional completely duff dealer.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #17 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 08:18 PM
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No the Q4 Ti Sport has been spot on the whole time. As for my quad, yes it seems as if they erased the fuel and timing maps when they cleared the codes. It's plenty fast but it doesn't have the same fervor, the same passion it had on the drive home from purchase. It's lost its personality. It's as if it's a muted version of it's prior self yet nobody seems to care. They say they escalated it to some high Alfa factory level but even at that, the end result is the same and nobody wants to talk to me regarding this. I have nobody to refer to. I can go to some high end private tuner shop at insane $$/hr rates but understand, I'm not independently wealthy. I have a good job, and I'm responsible with my money however I don't have money to burn. I work every day for a paycheck and this whole experience has me spooked.
I have looked into finding a way to interface with the onboard computer to map these things myself but Alfa has them locked out. So again, I'm at the mercy of those who don't or won't care. My will to fight has limits and I believe they have been reached with this ordeal almost a year on now.
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post #18 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 08:31 PM
Del
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So, it ended up not driving the same as another Quad? Since these cars are all software controlled now, they must have used a different set of algorithms in the computers to prevent a re-occurence of the original problem? It is kind of a crazy driving car in any case.

That's why I ask whether or not it drives the same as the cars coming out now from dealerships. That, in fact, that particular model you bought was "overtuned", so to speak? That others who now buy the car find it drives the same as what you have now? I know there have been a lot of software upgrades and changes in these cars, as happens with many different makes and models. You did contact the factory about this, bypassing the dealership, as I've done?

Please forgive my questions, as I do not mean to be critical, just very curious, being an Alfa owner for over 40 years, and considering perhaps a Giulia of some sort in the future. Always hate to see people rush into things, even after the time you have spent pursuing this.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 01-06-2019 at 08:34 PM.
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post #19 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 08:41 PM
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The car I did a test drive in, and the car I ultimately purchased were both fire breathers. The dealership did offer to have me come back and do a comparison drive with one of their Quads but again, that's 130 miles away and I'm not keen on putting miles and miles on my car for willy nilly tests. My car and the test car were identical last year. I would be interested in doing that new comparison but the timing hasn't presented itself for the opportunity yet. Nevertheless, I know that my car is substantially less than it was when I purchased it and all I'm after are some answers. Some real answers, with data, and an intelligent response. What I do for a living is very akin to tuning something like an Alfa or Ferrari so coddling me with non-responses has gained little traction with me, and has only reinforced the idea that they have no idea what they're doing hence any further involvement on my part is a waste of time. Prove me wrong? Have some petrol head from Alfa call me and talk shop? Involve me and my investment in a community of like minded folks who care little for money and live for the passion and excitement of the physics behind such an achievement? Yes! Coddle me like a fool and I'll find the exit.
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post #20 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 08:48 PM
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And no, I don't mind the questions one bit. I actually find this quite therapeutic to have found an outlet of like minded folks to express my pent-up frustrations... not necessarily in a rantlike fashion, although it is, but rather in a co-miseration quality, a fraternity if you will. A fraternal network of support from both aggressor and victim perspectives -lol. There shall be a balance found amidst the chaos I'm sure.
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post #21 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 09:16 PM
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I think that you'd have to talk with a lawyer who focus his professional activity on consumer rights. Any of your activity on any Alfa forums should be focused into find people with your same precise problem to help all for an eventual class action prosecution.
I did in this way when had a serious problem with Range Rover producer many years ago. After little months they refunded me acceptably. Then I stayed away from them forever.
I am sorried if my comment above upset you. It was not my intention.
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post #22 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 09:38 PM
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Oh no, your response didn't upset me in any way whatsoever. I ingratiated myself to the challenging questions and provoking thoughts. I have considered the legal option but before I do, I require data. Such data is obtained on a hydraulically linked dynamometer. Such dynamometers are rare. The Alfa will limit itself if it realizes the front wheels aren't turning at the same rate as the rear wheels, and with the RWD Quadrifoglio, such a dyno is mandatory. If my trade-in offer is beyond my acceptable loss criteria, and I find no buyers on the private sale market which is most likely, then I may stick to my guns and find a legal resolution to this mess. But again I digress, I need data before I have anything upon which to stand on.
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post #23 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 09:43 PM
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The "coddle me like a fool" comment was paraphrased in reference to the way the dealership service departments have dealt with me. It wasn't referencing our conversation at all, if that was what you were concerned about. No worries!
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post #24 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 09:50 PM
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Can you only imagine a new Quadrifoglio with a Pagani reworking? The simplicity, the beauty, the ease of maintenance.... a true driver's car. Ferrari hints at this with their Scuderia. The Alfa would benefit with such a lesson. It would take the pinnacle of the marque if they produced such a thing. And above all, make the damned thing easy to maintenance as most of us that love driving also love to turn a wrench.
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post #25 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 09:52 PM
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" The dealership did offer to have me come back and do a comparison drive with one of their Quads but again, that's 130 miles away and I'm not keen on putting miles and miles on my car for willy nilly tests"

I guess I would offer, as an engineer, that the test would not be "willy nilly" but a straight driving experience comparison of what is being offered these days now and what you have. That is the best non-science test you could be given, to see just how the new car feels compared to what you have, other than actual recorded times, etc. I do think that the feel one gets when driving such an enthusiast car is pretty subjective after a few miles, in that like buying tv sets, the differences in picture quality fade with time. Yeah, there may be a slight difference in times, etc, but the differences in performance of the car ends up relatively undetectable with time.

The dealership IS offering to let you do the comparison, as they should. You could give them that.

Is there a possibility that they have to tune all of the new cars similar to what you have now? That the factory was "over-reaching" in what they were actually selling to the public in the beginning?

Still, I can understand being peeved. I've run across very duff dealers in different parts of the country, most of them back east compared to those out west, for some reason. I never figured out the reason, but I can say, I've also dealt with some very good dealers who listened and accommodated my wishes when they could.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 01-06-2019 at 10:05 PM.
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post #26 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 10:00 PM
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I am keen on doing this comparison test however now isn't the best of timing for such a thing to occur. I advised them that spring would be the best time to schedule such a test. I haven't heard a peep from them since. The car may very well be traded off prior to then as well. As an aside, I have made some conjecture over what had occurred with the incident at 428 miles. When they cleared the codes and reset the system, they wiped everything, including what the car had leaned as far as tuning maps. I've fed it a diet of non ethanol premium since then and it has slowly hinted at regaining it's previous fervor. Speaking with a tuner friend of mine, he said other cars sometimes require 800 to 1000 miles to learn their proper mapping curves, which I am nearly there. So the dealership guys could be truthful in saying that "it's fine", not realizing that recovering from a prefrontal lobotomy takes time in this particular model. Only time will tell.
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post #27 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 10:08 PM
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And the driving test is purely subjective. What I'm trying to gauge are subtleties in the experience and judging by my prior experience with these gentlemen, I don't believe them capable of perceiving. So it's much ado about nothing to them. Hence my need for actual hard raw data that they can't brush aside as mere conjecture. Therefore the dynamometer test would be the ultimate scorecard to reference against the numbers published by Alfa, and experienced by me the first 428 miles of my ownership of the car. Numbers don't lie. Subjective tests even under the best of circumstances, could.
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post #28 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 10:17 PM
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"Numbers don't lie. Subjective tests even under the best of circumstances, could". Cannot argue with that, but because a driving experience is subjective, that's what you end up feeling in the long run. Pure numbers are not everything, as I found out in my professional work. As I asked, what are the new cars like compared to what you have? Only a test drive will tell you realistically, since slight differences in numbers sometimes cannot be really detected. Been there, done that.

Well, anyway, personally, I encourage you hang with it for a while longer, irritating as it may seem to feel as if you have been in a way dissed by the dealer. Sounds like there is the possibility of a semantics problem, each side having different ideas of what some words and requests mean. Would I expect a dealer to supply me with performance numbers for one specific car, mine? Perhaps not realistically, even in your situation. There are general numbers published by car mags. Is your car close to some easily determined ones?

I as well feel that the friend may be correct in how the car is learning just how you want the car to drive after it's "prefrontal lobotomy", so to speak, lol. Once again, I mention buying a new TV, where the display TVs often are set to a "showroom setting" for overly set colors, brightness, tint, etc. You do not use that setting when at home. Maybe the original versions of the Quad were just too touchy for their own good.

These **** new cars, with their many multiple computers, some have several dozens, with thousands of lines of code, and learning algorithms, are soooo complicated, I'm glad my newest Alfa, the 94LS, has only several computers to mess with. They learn nothing, lol. I act as the computer telling the car how to drive. This is what makes me hesitate about buying a new car at all.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 01-06-2019 at 10:33 PM.
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post #29 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 10:32 PM
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Dilly dilly! -lol Again, I reference the Pagani-Alfa collaboration on the Super Quad, where it would be a driver's car, without all the extraneous bs of modern coachbaggery to be crass... snicker. I don't require, or desire to be able to know what my car is doing from across the world, nor do I need extraneous displays and functionality. I need and want a cockpit, with handsome surfaces upon which to grasp whilst hurtling down whatever canyon road my heart desires. With the air about my head alive with sounds of passion and grit, and smells of high octane and burning brakes. Ref: RUSH Red Barchetta comes to mind. I really thought I had the modern facsimile of such a beast at modest easily attainable pricing but then intrudes the bs of non-support and suddenly the pipe dream comes crashing down. I love my car, really I do. But I hate where it's put me. Perception is everything in life. You can be amidst the ruins of war and if your head is in the right place, you can find happiness. Ugh, waxing philosophical in the waning hours of freedom prior to returning to the grind on the morrow.
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post #30 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 10:38 PM
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Ref: Dilly Dilly... I actually was able to produce an autumnal peach meade last year and it was delightful. To the stocks with me!
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