No dipstick? - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 10Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #31 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 10:17 AM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
alfaparticle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbia SC
Posts: 12,942
When I was a young instrumentation engineer in 1975 the old works manager told me that the only instruments that he trusted where a dip stick and a mercury in glass thermometer. They certainly have fewer and better understood failure modes than most instruments.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
alfaparticle is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 10:19 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by GV27 View Post
More reliable? Oil level sensors fail pretty commonly. I'm not saying that they're unreliable but they can and do fail. I've never heard of a dipstick failing. I've been using dipsticks for 30 years and have never had one fail and have never had one not give me at least a good "ballpark" oil level.

Saying that the dipstick is a technology that simply doesn't work is utter bollocks.
Electronic "dipsticks" are here to stay. My reliability point relates to the user rather than the measurement device.

It is surprising how easily an incorrect reading can be observed on an ordinary dip stick.

I expect eventually that the electronic oil level sensor will feed its input to the ECU and inhibit engine starting before the level drops to critical. That would be a no brainer. An engine kill function on loss of oil pressure seems as logical but presents potential problems. A car refusing to start because it knows the engine may have insufficient oil would be a good innovation.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new

Last edited by Michael Smith; 06-07-2019 at 10:22 AM.
Michael Smith is offline  
post #33 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 05:59 PM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
Alfissimo Int.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,655
"My reliability point relates to the user rather than the measurement device.

It is surprising how easily an incorrect reading can be observed on an ordinary dip stick."

I agree with you here. Although for those who regularly check their dip stick are those who typically know how to read it. I guess those who incorrectly read it are dip sticks.

I still prefer a dipstick.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Jason Minos


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


New: +1 619-209-0715
e-mail:admin at alfissimo.com
San Diego, CA
1989 Spider Quad. Gone
1991 White Alfa Romeo 164S Recaro, Siena, Zender.-GONE
2010 Touareg TDI
2017 Giulia Ti Sport Q4, Trofeo, Leather package(red), Staggered.
Alfissimo Int. is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 07:24 PM
Del
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: seattle
Posts: 15,340
All I know is that the electric dipsticks in my Alfas have all failed. Now, maybe the newer ones are better, but still, you just CANNOT end up with a mechanical dip stick which will fail on you, and the reading one gets from them is probably withing 1/4 qt at worst. Good enough for the engine for sure, and for all of us who are not anal about new electronic doodads, just because they are new. They needn't be all that precise (kind of like trying to get 4 or 5 places on a slide rule, you could always tell who was the newbie, lol).

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 06-07-2019 at 07:30 PM.
Del is online now  
post #35 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 07:28 PM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
Alfissimo Int.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Del View Post
All I know is that the electric dipsticks on my Alfas have all failed. Now, maybe the newer ones are better, but still, you just cannot end up with a defective mechanical dip stick, and the reading one gets from them is probably withing 1/4 qt at worst. Good enough for the engine, and for all of us who are not anal about new electronic doodads, just because they are new.
I will let you know if mine fails. My 164 failed 1 time in 22 years. I replaced it and it still works fine ever since. I still rather have simplistic ways to check crucial things like oil level on a motor. Unless digital is becoming more reliable than analog (not really) then I can see moving towards all this but otherwise give me a **** dipstick.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Jason Minos


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


New: +1 619-209-0715
e-mail:admin at alfissimo.com
San Diego, CA
1989 Spider Quad. Gone
1991 White Alfa Romeo 164S Recaro, Siena, Zender.-GONE
2010 Touareg TDI
2017 Giulia Ti Sport Q4, Trofeo, Leather package(red), Staggered.
Alfissimo Int. is offline  
post #36 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 07:32 PM
Registered User
 
GV27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Lakewood, Colorado
Posts: 1,750
Garage
Send a message via AIM to GV27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
I expect eventually that the electronic oil level sensor will feed its input to the ECU and inhibit engine starting before the level drops to critical. That would be a no brainer. An engine kill function on loss of oil pressure seems as logical but presents potential problems. A car refusing to start because it knows the engine may have insufficient oil would be a good innovation.
Sure, until you're stuck in the middle of nowhere with a properly-oiled engine and a faulty sensor. That sounds like an awesomely good time and not frustrating at all.
Alfissimo Int. likes this.

Chris

1990 Spider Veloce
GV27 is offline  
post #37 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 07:53 PM
Del
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: seattle
Posts: 15,340
I remember some older cars which would shut the engine off if the electric oil level sensor read low for one reason or another. Seem to remember one was an old Chrysler of some sort my boss had, and another was the infamous Vega, owned by a friend. They had steep driveways, and they could end up with an engine which would not start, being maybe a qt low. They didn't know about this function, and thought maybe they needed an engine rebuild, not being car people, lol.

Electric dip sticks are just not necessary in real life. If any engine is soo sensitive to oil level that misreading a mechanical dip stick by 1/4 qt or so makes or breaks the engine, I want absolutely nothing to do with it.

It's just "new product" foolishness.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 06-07-2019 at 07:58 PM.
Del is online now  
post #38 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 09:26 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by Del View Post
All I know is that the electric dipsticks in my Alfas have all failed. Now, maybe the newer ones are better, but still, you just CANNOT end up with a mechanical dip stick which will fail on you, and the reading one gets from them is probably withing 1/4 qt at worst. Good enough for the engine for sure, and for all of us who are not anal about new electronic doodads, just because they are new. They needn't be all that precise (kind of like trying to get 4 or 5 places on a slide rule, you could always tell who was the newbie, lol).
The 164 doesn't have an electronic dipstick. It has a minimum oil level thermistor. They eventually fail. Fortunately, Alfa assumed theybwoukdntbbe foolproof so fitted a steel, ape dipstick. SAAB used a more reliable float switch to indicate minimum oil level.

Electronic dipsticks show actual oil level including over filled. Overfilling is a very common fault caused by incorrect use of a dipstick and can destroy an engine.

Those Vega engines were ridiculous: cast iron head bolted to a liner less aluminum block....designed for self destruction.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new
Michael Smith is offline  
post #39 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 09:14 AM
Del
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: seattle
Posts: 15,340
Electronic? Really, you know what I said, electric. And I do not believe that newer "electronic" versions would be any more reliable, being more complicated, with an accuracy which is not necessary in the real world.

The all too famous Porsche brand also used the same type of high silicon content linerless engines in several models. Just because GM couldn't get it right... however, yes, the Vegas was a huge joke on the automotive world. Haven't seen one in many years now. No one keeping one as a classic car, insured by maybe Hagerty, lol?

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
Del is online now  
post #40 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 07:22 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,703
The electronic dipstick (oil level monitor) also tells the driver when it isn't working.

The sender units in these systems are very reliable. In fact the number one reason current cars are so reliable is solid state electronics. Modern engines run completely trouble free for tens of thousands of kilometres because of modern electronics.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new
Michael Smith is offline  
post #41 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 11:12 AM
Del
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: seattle
Posts: 15,340
The engine/drivetrain in my "old" 91 164S has run completely trouble free for tens of thousands of Kilometres (307,000 to be specific at this point). Heads never off, same "as new" oil pressure, no injector or ignition problems, no transmission issues (finally had to replace the clutch), no axle or hub problems. Yes, it sucks oil due to bad OE oil rings from new. Electric sensor (found on all cars) failures were sometimes issues, and inadequately sized OE steering rack, seals evidently overloaded, as well.

There is nothing special about an electronic dip stick, as the accuracy is not needed, ie, valueless in the real world, and the metal stick version cannot fail, so it is 100% reliable, and it's accuracy is clearly good enough.

Yes, some newer electronic drivetrain control systems do improve the performance and lower pollution, but much of the rest, as in the infotainment systems, are just changes because "it's new and different", nothing more. And, some of the new electronic systems for steering and braking, as examples, are hardly necessary, and actually distance the driver from much of the sensual input desired for better vehicle control. The technical word for that might be "numb". Will give you that with self driving cars, who the heck will care. Just get in and go to sleep, lol.

Friend of ours back east bought a new Camry to replace her old one. Spent well over an hour being lectured by the salesman about how wonderful the new infotainment and car control systems were compared to her old 2000 version, what all neat things they could do, most of which she decided she would never ever bother to use, too much to remember or figure out for functions meaningless to her and almost all other drivers. Just had to laugh at that.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 06-10-2019 at 07:32 PM.
Del is online now  
post #42 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 05:54 PM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
Alfissimo Int.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,655
https://jalopnik.com/why-the-dipstick-is-dying-5522543

"As other outlets have reported, this switchover is intentional. It started with a handful of European luxury marques (Audi, BMW and Porsche), and is gradually making its way downmarket. And it's happening by popular demand. Common wisdom holds that the dipstick is dying for cost reasons or environmental concerns, but neither of these theories are true. We're losing the dipstick, manufacturers claim, because most of us don't use it."

That's the reason right there, most people don't use them or even know they exist.

"Do a sensor and an oil-level gauge do the same thing? Of course. Still, the room for error is disconcerting. Sensors fail; computers have glitches; readouts aren't always correct. A certain intangible quality is missing, even if it isn't immediately apparent. "

Yup. Why I don't like not having one. Old school thinking since this motor may not burn a drop of oil but there is still something in the ability to check the oil manually. "MANUALLY".


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Jason Minos


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


New: +1 619-209-0715
e-mail:admin at alfissimo.com
San Diego, CA
1989 Spider Quad. Gone
1991 White Alfa Romeo 164S Recaro, Siena, Zender.-GONE
2010 Touareg TDI
2017 Giulia Ti Sport Q4, Trofeo, Leather package(red), Staggered.
Alfissimo Int. is offline  
post #43 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 06:08 PM
Del
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: seattle
Posts: 15,340
We are ending up with many people who can make a computer do neat things, but don't know how to start a car, let alone drive it. The percentage of young people who do not even have licenses and don't care to drive is at an all time high. Either they let someone else do the work, or they just sit engrossed with the smart phones glued to their collective hands.

As for locking a car? Friend of mine said, why bother. It's a stick shift, and 95% of the people these days who are inclined to steal it can't drive it, lol.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
Del is online now  
post #44 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 08:00 PM
Registered User
 
ARwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Transplanted from Holland to The Armpit of New Jersey
Posts: 2,310
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Del View Post

As for locking a car? Friend of mine said, why bother. It's a stick shift, and 95% of the people these days who are inclined to steal it can't drive it, lol.
That is the most ridiculous thing ever said....<shrug>

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough”
Oo--V--oO There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental Illness".
ARwrench is offline  
post #45 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-14-2019, 06:49 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,703
I'm pretty sure engines with electronic oil level displays also allow manual checking of the oil level through an oil extraction tube, if absolutely necessary.

All such systems indicate to the driver either the correct oil level, a message saying the information is not available (usually with wording suggesting how to deal with that message) or a fault message advising the driver to have the system checked.

None of these features apply to a manual dipstick.

Not only do most drivers not check the oil level these days there really is no reason why they should need to.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new
Michael Smith is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome