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No dipstick?

42K views 163 replies 29 participants last post by  Del 
#1 ·
Reading my manual I saw that there is no dipstick for monitoring oil levels.
It is done electronically and available on the dashboard. That makes sense and was a long time coming.
 
#78 ·
Far more damage occurs to engines a litre too full than a litre down.
[/QUOTE]
EXACTLY why the 2.0 system can't be trusted. Granted an engine can survive being a liter low, but what about the poor guy who overfills by the same amount-or more- if he trusts the slow-reacting display? Even though the manual specifies the parameters for checking oil level, how many owners do you think don't take time to RTFM?
 
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#79 ·
johnalfa knows what he is saying. The giuliaforums is thick with posts from (less than well educated car folk, as well as average car folk) new Giulia owners who either didn't know how to read the (less than satisfactory) visual dash display, or didn't know how it works (the Owner's manual is incorrect), who added 1-2-3-4 extra quarts of engine oil above what they needed. Ask any Alfa Dealer tech about this; they have all drained multiple overfilled crankcases. A dipstick would have prevented all, or the vast majority of these instances. I know more than one person who is working to cobble together a dipstick mod for the 2.0 engine.
 
#80 ·
I think this debate is kooky by some. Doesn’t hurt to have dipstick. Nice fallback or secondary means to ensure proper oil refill since the electronic system not real time.
for one to state dipstick not reliable or accurate is just pure nonsense. Alternative “facts”
Why is Kelly Ann Conway on this site anyway!!🥴😳🤣 What if sensor fails, battery dead or inst. display inop?????
I love tech but AR system sub optimal really based on my experience. MBZ and BMW system much more reliable.
 
#82 ·
There is a threaded plug on the front of the oil pan that is used as an access to (get this!) insert a factory tool, to physically check the oil level. You have to remove the shield near the front crank pulley to see it clearly. The tool is about 4.5" long, has a graduated rod about .25" in diameter topped with a knurled knob for grasping. There is a detailed description for use, with 3 images, in the service manual.
Some cabin filters are trickier than others. My 01 e39 530i is so easy, a child could do it in less than one minute. And that is for both (dual climate control) of them!
 
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#84 ·
If the thermometer in your mouth was accurate to plus or minus 20% I think you'd be right in describing it as inaccurate. As I point out the dipstick in any engine is accurate to within a litre. In four. The dipstick also doesn't inform the user how much oil to add, you have to estimate. Some dipsticks have one American quart between the marks. That's a lot less than one litre.

Blaming the electronic readout for the owner adding too much oil is ridiculous.
 
#86 ·
Blaming the electronic readout for the owner adding too much oil is ridiculous.
What or who would you blame, the uninitiated owner? As andylarry said, overfilling is evidently fairly common with new Alfa owners. Why do YOU think the engineers saw fit to include a dipstick on the V6 and not the 2.0.? Would love to hear your theory on that.
 
#85 ·
"Some dipsticks have one American quart between the marks. That's a lot less than one litre".

The dipstick for the 164 has a space between marks representing 2 qts between full and minimum. A reasonable eye can easily figure 1/2 qt levels with the stick, if not closer to 1/4 qt, and it reads properly within a few seconds of adding oil when checked, the oil flowing down pretty quickly, as I've measured a zillion times.

BTW, a US quart is almost the same as a liter, being 0.95 of a liter. No worthwhile difference at all for what we are discussing.

Waiting for an electronic dip stick to finally read the proper level is counterproductive, and can easily lead to improper amounts being added for the uninitiated; whereas at least for the 164, the mechanical dip stick is located close enough for even the uninitiated owner to easily check as he adds oil, ensuring a proper level achieved without having to wait for some complicated electronic device to recalibrate itself.
 
#89 ·
Actually, what is interesting about all of the trends towards electronic systems in vehicles is the shortage of the required computer chips which is occuring as we speak. Vehicle production is being curtailed in many models because of this, and it is figured that the supply of the necessary chips will not return toward normal for maybe a year or more, according to the WSJ.
 
#91 ·
It's been awhile since I changed my own oil.

I recall that when I did I counted the litres.

To check the oil level electronically on my Jaguar you access the trip computer. If you can select the odometer display for kilometres covered since the last reset you then press once for range to empty, a second time for fuel consumption, a third time for average speed since the last reset, the next press will display oil level and lastly a digital speed readout. Engine off of course.

For the Mini it is similar.

I am stating facts, not my opinions.

Preferring to use a dipstick is certainly a matter of opinion ( technically a preference). Claiming it is somehow superior to an electronic oil level sensor is not a matter of opinion.

You should note that at no time have I criticized anyone for their preference to using dipstick.

What I object to is any claim that the electronic sensor system is in any way inferior or unsatisfactory from a factual perspective.

I've looked into this. I'm satisfied that I am right and that proponents of continuing to use a dipstick in preference to an electronic system are wrong about their claims. I am open to evidence that the manual dipstick system works better. I know of no such evidence. Feel free to post some.

Anyone is free to do the same research as I have. I have now lived with a car that has only an electronic oil level display for 8 years now. They work just fine. Easy to use. Reliable. I open the hood to refill the windshield washer fluid container. That's it. My dash even tells me when I need to do that.
 
#97 ·
I have an engineer on my legal team. He's a good lawyer also. Statistically, I appear to be a "great defence lawyer" but I couldn't possibly comment on the opinions held by others.

I'm defending Alfa Romeo. Winning, I'd say.
 
#100 ·
Our experience through the years has been is that sensors do go out, sometimes quickly, sometimes not for years; but yes, there has been a market for replacement sensors for decades. I have little faith that newer ones are any more reliable, electronic or not.
 
#101 ·
The oil level monitoring system in the 2.0 is flawed. This is my anecdotal but real observation, an uncontrolled data point.

The system includes the actual sensor, the readout, the instructions on the readout, and the written instructions in the manual. The driver relies on the entire system including the instructions. So when the system reports incorrect low oil level despite following the user manual, and the owner adds oil thereby overfilling that is a system-caused error. In this case a dipstick would immediately give manual visual evidence.

I don’t really care which approach is used as long as it works as designed, which is not the case with the 2.0 and one of its few flaws in a super well engineered vehicle. Luckily these engines burn little oil, a quart every 5-10k miles so if you know the level is good to start with, then barring a catastrophic leak one is unlikely to grenade an engine between oil changes. Of course very few of these engines have high mileage so we’ll see when they reach 150,000 mile. In the meantime I change my Stelvio oil every 5k miles so I am not too worried yet🙂
 
#102 ·
Modern engines do not burn oil. Emission regulations mean they cannot.

Electronic dipsticks are 100% reliable. They do not display oil level if they fail. That's your first clue to get your car checked out.

This obsession with full sumps is frankly just weird.

The engine is designed to run forever with the oil at the minimum mark. That's why it's a minimum.
 
#106 ·
Modern engines are designed, engineered and built such that they do not use oil. They cannot meet emissions regulations if they do. The US regulators are seeking 160,000 km (100,000 mile) no service interval engine regulations. Oil changes are excepted only because nobody can yet figure out how to avoid them.

In particular, turbo engines use hardened compression rings that do not pass blowby gas and oil control rings that do not pass oil. Valve guides no longer pass oil. This is one reason the Busso engine was retired and not further modified.

Electronic "dipsticks" work just fine. I checked my Jaguar oil level the other day and it displayed half a bar low ten months after the last change. But, that was after only an hour sitting and the floor of my garage is of course sloped for drainage. I am sure were I to check it again at my office which has a more level floor and after three hours rather than one the level would show higher. Most important the oil level checked OK so no need to add any.

Reading posts about the lack of dipsticks informs me that I indeed inhabit the real World. Just waiting for you'all to catch up to modern reality.

If you feel the need to check your engine oil you need an older Alfa than the Giulia.
 
#105 · (Edited)
Modern regulations require that modern engines should not consume any oil between changes, yes, but regulations themselves cannot force an engine to not consume oil if the engine or some part in it is flawed in some way.

On another subject, I spent a third of my career in aerospace service engineering. We were used to dealing with state of the art sensors, pretty darn high priced equipment. There WERE reasons why service engineering existed, and still does. Parts such as sensors and chips sometimes fail, and have to be replaced. Finding them, among other engineering problems, kept me busy, earning me a salary.
 
#108 ·
So what happens to the poor owner who decides to change his own oil to save a few dollars, and then overfills the engine because he doesn't read the manual and gauge doesn't update for a day or two? It's been noted that the Giulia/Stelvio gauge is rather lackadaisical in operation.
 
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#110 ·
I don't know about the Giulia but my Jaguar will tell you if the sump is overfilled and not to drive the car.

The oil display bar is not linear but proportional. Until the bar is about 1/4 of the full length no oil need be added. At that point one half liter can be added. Only when the bar disappears completely is it correct to add one liter. The display informs you when to add and how much. If by chance you run the oil below one liter low then a different warning appears. If the system isn't capable of measuring oil level yet another warning appears.

Of interest to dipstick fanatics the owner's handbook gives exactly the same instructions for the 2.0 liter engine this car also came with in some markets. The owner would be required to interpret the oil level on the dipstick in order to add correct amounts of oil. The electronic bar represents the physical dipstick but has the added convenience of requiring no interpretation of what the owner is looking at.
 
#112 ·
Remember what Shakespeare said about lawyers? The Giulia/Stelvio system would be acceptable IF it could update in a reasonable amount of time. And yes it does give a warning of overfill but evidently not immediately. There's the rub.
 
#115 ·
A dipstick can't measure oil level "immediately". The electronic system can give you the correct oil level before you start the engine and as quickly as a dipstick can after shutdown. Neither method is reliable immediately after shutdown. Some electronic systems can read oil level correctly while the engine is running which no dipstick can do.

Dick the butcher was clearly an idiot.
 
#117 ·
Don’t worry John, as a Guilia owner and a long time Alfisti, you know what the system does including giving incorrect readings for days. This is frustrating for owners, mechanics and dealer service managers. So the response is that, to paraphrase: new cars don’t use oil, don’t need to check the oil, dipsticks are unreliable, cars don’t need to be full of oil, the sensors are good even if the readout is wrong, etc are all rationalizations and opinions. None of this is customer-centric. Car people want their systems to work, non-car people can be confused, car people like to have a full crankcase. I don’t want to run a quart down on a long high speed run, especially in hot weather with a full load. That’s a customer-centric desire. The system doesn’t work properly. This is a common complaint on the Guilia and Stelvio forums. Guess we are all ignorant customers and owners. LOL.

When are we getting together? Auto Milano runs like a clock. 🙂
 
#119 ·
Anybody here own a Giulia which consumes oil?

At what rate?

The dashboard display will show the oil level without starting the engine. Because Alfa calibrated their gauge to show oil level when the engine is hot you need to warm up the engine to get the oil level to refresh and display accurately. If the engine is cold it may show oil level to be lower than the gauge is calibrated for.

Guess what, the same amount of oil is in your engine either way.

I get fed up with people complaining about things they just don't understand. Read the manual properly.
 
#120 ·
Apparently mine and a lot of others do use oil. My gauge level varies during a 5000 mile change interval from the top mark down to somewhere around 3/4-7/8 full. Other owners on the Giulia/Stelvio forums also report declining levels. It's not enough of a drop that I'd worry about running out of oil-besides the system would at some point inform of low oil. But the fact is, the oil level does change-so it's going somewhere. It's not leaking BTW so what do you suppose is happening?
 
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