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post #16 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-18-2018, 03:39 AM
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To get back to the Giulia, the lack of a dipstick is fine as long as the sensors are all working properly -- Just like the Giulia's lack of a spare tire is fine as long as you don't have a problem with any of the four tires it does have. But my experience with my Audi is that the sensors don't always work.

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post #17 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-18-2018, 05:08 AM
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My new car, not an Alfa, has no dip stick. The tube is used to remove the engine the oil during servicing.

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post #18 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-18-2018, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Del View Post
"New type emissions compliant engines aren't allowed to burn any oil so they don't"

Uh huh. We shall see. If they don't burn it, will engine seals last forever, so no leaks? I don't think so.

Why bother to even put another light on the dash if it will never be used? If it comes on, I suppose you are to drive to a dealer to add more oil, or is there a place to even add oil?
Along with the electronic oil level sensor you usually get "from the top" servicing. There is a "drain" tube through which old oil is extracted. It is feasible to check oil level by inserting a dipstick down this tube. The oil filter (usually now an old fashioned cartridge, not metal spin on) is in a canister somewhere at the top of the engine as is an oil filler tube.

And no, engines won't leak oil either.

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post #19 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-18-2018, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Gubi View Post
Heh...you go on believing that.
The only engine I drive at the moment that burns any oil is in my 164. It also seeps a bit but not so much as you would notice. It does drip oil after the filter is changed probably because you cannot get the filter off without spilling oil onto the subframe.

I drive a supercharged Subaru, supercharged jaguar and turbocharged SAAB none of which use any oil at all.

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post #20 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Giulia2017 View Post
Reading my manual I saw that there is no dipstick for monitoring oil levels.
It is done electronically and available on the dashboard. That makes sense and was a long time coming.
No dipstick? This may seem ok to some folks, but having been in the trade I know that many a main dealer "forgets" to change to oil and filter, and the only way of checking this is what can be seen on the dipstick after a service. I have been the victim of this by two main dealers of two prestige European car makes. Proof of oil change is vital, especially with a 2 litre 280 bhp high performance engine!
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post #21 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 12:06 PM
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You cannot tell from a dipstick whether engine oil has been changed. You certainly can't tell if the filter has.

Modern engines using synthetic oil do not actually wear out the oil. The limit on service intervals is actually governed by the filter capacity. Modern engines wear so slowly that even filters last longer than the specified service interval.

Number one reason to change the oil nowadays is water contamination due yo heat cycling in humid conditions particularly during or after a cold winter.

If you insist on checking this yourself you can open the filter canister on some engines, like BMW, where the filter is a top change item. Also, engines are often equipped for top of engine vacuum removal of oil so it is still possible to run a piece of trimmer "string " down the vacuum tube to secure a very small oil sample. You can also access the oil through the filler cap, wherever that might be.

I don't know what arrangements Alfa makes for filters or removal of old oil.

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post #22 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
If you insist on checking this yourself you can open the filter canister on some engines, like BMW, where the filter is a top change item. Also, engines are often equipped for top of engine vacuum removal of oil so it is still possible to run a piece of trimmer "string " down the vacuum tube to secure a very small oil sample. You can also access the oil through the filler cap, wherever that might be.
Or, you can buy a dipstick

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post #23 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 04:28 PM
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Modern cars don't burn oil, yeah right

Lets see Toyota and subaru are currently having a recall due to excessive oil consumption on the BRZ

Subaru's are notorious for oil consumption with their flat 4 engines

BMW and Audi state that it is normal to consume 1 quart every 750 to 1000 miles.

On the Mini by BMW if you let it run just a couple of qts low it will ruin the engine.

And yes you can absolutely tell if your oil has been changed by looking at the dipstick. If you can't tell you probably should not be opening the hood.

KL Harper
Mebane, NC yes another one from Mebane and it is not that big of a town.
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post #24 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 06:45 PM
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Modern cars don't burn oil, yeah right

Lets see Toyota and subaru are currently having a recall due to excessive oil consumption on the BRZ

Subaru's are notorious for oil consumption with their flat 4 engines

BMW and Audi state that it is normal to consume 1 quart every 750 to 1000 miles.

On the Mini by BMW if you let it run just a couple of qts low it will ruin the engine.

And yes you can absolutely tell if your oil has been changed by looking at the dipstick. If you can't tell you probably should not be opening the hood.
The BRZ / GT86 recall has nothing to do with oil consumption. Less than 1% of a wide range of Subaru 2.0 engines, not confined to the BRZ version, have been suspected of inner valve spring failure. Actual failure rates are infinitesimally small. It's an American thing.

Some Subaru 2.0 engines were assembled with defective oil control rings which Subaru repaired.

Mini specified a 24 month oil change interval for their Brazilian made Chrysler engines. They don't use those any longer. There was a version of BMW engine fitted which had problems but BMW redesigned that engine. Oil consumption was a symptom and not a cause.

But, whatever. You think you can tell the condition of oil from the dipstick. Glad you're not servicing my cars.

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post #25 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 10:29 PM
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The electronic dipstick were used on Milano cars and also have dipsticks. I prefer having a dipstick so I can check oil level rather than having only an electronic device. I know that new cars burn very little oil but, oil consumption increases with mileage due to engine wear.
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post #26 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 05:30 AM
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Michael, I have been mechanicking for 50 years and also spent some time working in special oil filtration systems. Some of what you write is true, but the dipstick is always the primary method of checking for oil having been changed, and handling marks or oil residue on the filter housing is absolute in telling whether that component has been changed or not. Modern synthetic oils are excellent in longevity, and in fact I have done 3,500 miles around Europe last year in my 1953 Austin Healey, using only 1 litre of oil on that journey, unheard of with normal multigrade oils, although I had previously rebuilt that engine very carefully. However, even synthetic oils have a life and it's the vital additives that wear. These are largely there for agglomeration of carbon and other particles, and account for the lack of residue in the sump when the oil is drained. Carbon is a wear factor in engines and is dealt with properly by changing the oil. Water in the oil is a minor factor in modern engines. Those who think that synthetic oil never needs changing are welcome to that theory!
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post #27 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 10:01 AM
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With respect to the subject, I know just two things, that fresh/changed oil is clear looking as compared to used oil which has turned dark due to the particles held in suspension by the detergent additives (even with the 94LS which uses zero oil), and that the electronic oil level sensors in all our own Alfas which had them have failed. It works for me to use a real manually operated dipstick once in a while. I'm not that lazy.

The newest cars, maybe yes theoretically, but in real life, realistically, anything designed/made by man can find a way to go astray and/or fail. It is an given. Nothing is absolute except death and the end of the universe.

Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 05-23-2019 at 09:36 PM.
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post #28 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-26-2019, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
You cannot tell from a dipstick whether engine oil has been changed. You certainly can't tell if the filter has.

Modern engines using synthetic oil do not actually wear out the oil. The limit on service intervals is actually governed by the filter capacity. Modern engines wear so slowly that even filters last longer than the specified service interval.

Number one reason to change the oil nowadays is water contamination due yo heat cycling in humid conditions particularly during or after a cold winter.

If you insist on checking this yourself you can open the filter canister on some engines, like BMW, where the filter is a top change item. Also, engines are often equipped for top of engine vacuum removal of oil so it is still possible to run a piece of trimmer "string " down the vacuum tube to secure a very small oil sample. You can also access the oil through the filler cap, wherever that might be.

I don't know what arrangements Alfa makes for filters or removal of old oil.
Sure you can. Since we are talking no dipsticks here and dealer needs to change oil (not really), if we had a dipstick we can see right away if the oil has been changed. Oil stays pretty gold for about a day or so, sometimes longer. I'd rather know the oil has been changed. If the filter has not, I'd ok with it over old oil, even synthetic which does wear or really shears down to a lower grade. An old filter still will filter, old oil won't do it's job as well as the new.

Water contamination is not really an issue either. This is only an issue mainly in diesels. We have filters with water trap systems.
I own one and run a secondary 1 micron filter with water trap and sensor. Not needed on gasoline engines since water is not really much of an issue.

Alfa Giulia has same style and size filter as 164. Sits on bottom of the motor. No way to check level that I know of. yet...


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post #29 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 08:46 AM
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Colour of fresh engine oil is very variable. Oil responds to heat cycling. The dark colour is not due to particles as those are removed by the filter. The colour of freshly changed engine oil can change significantly on the very first start up depending on how much old oil the engine retains after a change. And so on.

Water condensation in the crankcase contamination from blowby gas is the number 1 reason for annual oil changes regardless of mileage.

This risk is much higher in winter climates especially if you also get high humidity in winter and especially if the car is garaged in a heated space.

The dipstick tells you the measured oil level assuming it is used correctly. Generally speaking you need to observe a number of pre-conditions before you can rely on a dipstick.

Electronic oil level indicators using sonar or other boundary layer sensors are more reliable and accurate than physical dipsticks, not to mention much easier and more convenient to use. If the pre-conditions are not met the instrument panel tells you so and often tells you what those conditions are or refers you explicitly to the handbook.

There's no reason to regret the absence of a dipstick.

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post #30 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post

The dipstick tells you the measured oil level assuming it is used correctly. Generally speaking you need to observe a number of pre-conditions before you can rely on a dipstick.

Electronic oil level indicators using sonar or other boundary layer sensors are more reliable and accurate than physical dipsticks, not to mention much easier and more convenient to use. If the pre-conditions are not met the instrument panel tells you so and often tells you what those conditions are or refers you explicitly to the handbook.
More reliable? Oil level sensors fail pretty commonly. I'm not saying that they're unreliable but they can and do fail. I've never heard of a dipstick failing. I've been using dipsticks for 30 years and have never had one fail and have never had one not give me at least a good "ballpark" oil level.

Saying that the dipstick is a technology that simply doesn't work is utter bollocks.

Chris

1990 Spider Veloce
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