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post #61 of 107 (permalink) Old 04-01-2018, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Pershyn View Post
The question is in a correct tires and driving skills. How is possible to drive 280HP RWD car with all season tires on ice or snow?
I would not expect traction at all, LSD won't help on snow, the car will stuck.
Tires for winter conditions should be winter and studded. It's common in north Europe. I think in Scandinavia, Ukraine and Russia more than 60% of drivers use studded tires.

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I would not drive rwd car without winter tires (with studs), in fwd car its possbile to use studless winter tires so called "kitkarengas", is there own english word for this? In Finland 85% uses tires with studs.

here is some results from tire comparisons

original: https://www.laaturenkaat.fi/rengastestit
gooogle translate: https://tinyurl.com/y72t27qq
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-Antti: --ex Alfas:155 2.0 8V '92,155 2.0 16V '96,156 V6 '98,156 V6 '02
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post #62 of 107 (permalink) Old 04-01-2018, 06:30 AM
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The main performance problem presented by studded tires is the effect on bare road performance. To operate correctly even retracting studs need harder rubber than studless winter tires offer. On bare roads the studs reduce tire performance quite noticeably.

It is just as easy to drive a high powered car as a low powered car on snow or ice. All season tires are not suitable for real winter but it is feasible to use a set all winter if you have the necessary skill. Of course, if you have those skills you prefer a proper winter tire but maybe not the studless or studded type.

In North America winter road maintenance is excellent and for most of winter we drive on bare roads. Even when it snows heavily we rarely need truly outstanding winter tires. I routinely use high performance winter tires and experience no difficulties driving even in severe winter conditions. For us the most important winter tire performance characteristic for safety is grip on ice because driving in deep snow is relatively infrequent.

Of the studless winter tires available I rate Nokian (a Bridgestone company) as the top performer as do European tire rating organizations. Continental makes the best all around winter tire: the WinterExtreme. Pirelli has just matched that tire with its relatively new zero ice. Michelin is always near the top and it's X Ice is superb on ice. Bridgestone makes the excellent WS80.

For high performance winter tires nobody beats the Pirelli Sottozero. Winter performance is adequate but bare road performance is superb. They even work reasonably well at summer temperatures. In cold weather they are superb performance tires.

Since braking and cornering are the vital winter performance characteristics I agree that lsd and even awd are not as important as fitting the right winter tire. I have never felt the need for studded winter tires. Studless winter tires came out in the 1970's with the metzler blue and the Continental Contact (my choice).

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Last edited by Michael Smith; 04-01-2018 at 06:36 AM.
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post #63 of 107 (permalink) Old 04-01-2018, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Del View Post
I suspect the temperature and resulting road surface can make a big difference.

There are roads with very cold ice on them which can be sticky enough to be able to drive on, there are roads with very cold snow, which is like driving on sand, no problem. Then there are roads with 3-6 inches of wet slush on them, which can be pretty difficult to get through. I remember one time with my 86GTV6 on which I had chains, and I could not get through the 6-8 inches of the sloppy stuff on a slight hill, the temperature being around 33-34F, with water running everywhere. The front tires just bogged down in it and the rear tires just spun with no traction (I might have been able to back up it).

The worst, though, IMO is sheet ice with water running on it. Superman would have trouble with that. Even studs help only a little.
I drove my GTV6 for two winters on stock summer tires. But I also drove a SAAB 99 with four Pirelli studless winter tires during those winters. The GTV6 had a truly superb chassis and showed the same excellent handling characteristics in low grip as it did on warm bare roads. But I drove the SAAB when it snowed, mostly. Now that was a capable winter car.

If you know what you're doing you can drive on cold or dry snow or ice with summer tires from the 80's. No way you can do that now. Summer tires are much more season specific than they used to be before the Pirelli P7 came out.

Very cold ice, minus 30C cold, actually delivers pretty good grip especially with studless rubber. Wet ice and smooth polished ice are virtually impossible to drive on safely regardless of tires or studs. Even chains can be defeated by wet smooth ice.
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Last edited by Michael Smith; 04-01-2018 at 06:44 AM.
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post #64 of 107 (permalink) Old 04-01-2018, 11:52 AM
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"Very cold ice, minus 30C cold, actually delivers pretty good grip especially with studless rubber. Wet ice and smooth polished ice are virtually impossible to drive on safely regardless of tires or studs. Even chains can be defeated by wet smooth ice"

My experience as well, not here, as it doesn't get that cold, lol, but when I drove in Alaska for sure. Very cold ice and snow (as long as it is not 2 feet deep) are not that difficult to drive on, with reasonable traction from street tires. And, it doesn't take -30C to get that benefit.

Our snow around Puget Sound on the other hand is generally just slow water in only a semisolid form (like a sponge), temperatures around or above freezing, and water just running everywhere.

In our mountain conditions, and even in some of the slush in town (as long as it wasn't very deep) my original 62 Morris Mini could go anywhere even with regular stock skinny street tires. Not enough hp, 37, to break a tire loose, lol. Could climb up hills I couldn't go down safely. The modified 67 Cooper S wasn't nearly as good, had too much hp, easily breaking the tires loose. Hp can your enemy on snow and ice for traction.

Anyway, as for the Giulia, time will tell as people gain more experience in various conditions.

Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 04-01-2018 at 12:04 PM.
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post #65 of 107 (permalink) Old 04-01-2018, 12:56 PM
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Usually all season (in Europe they are Summer) tires stop to work at +5. Compound appears as made from plastic, so at below 0 temperatures there is no traction even at dry asphalt. Good quality winter tires have suitable traction at dry surfaces till -25 (my current Continental ContiWinterContact TS 830 P can be driven almost as a good summer tire, with the same grip). Then, when the temperature is below -25, compound loose the performance very fast. This year at -30 the front wheels sometimes lost traction at 90-100 km/h under soft acceleration (from 1900 rpm) at the 6th gear.
At -40 and below the tire can crack because of the low temperature.

Nowadays in Europe can be found real all season tires (cross climate) that can be used at any weather conditions (from -30 to +40). But the back side of the universality is that they have worst performance in any condition than summer or winter tires.

Also the skinnier tires are the better grip in a winter they have. This is why in WRC used 145/155 winter tires with studs.
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post #66 of 107 (permalink) Old 04-01-2018, 01:47 PM
Del
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"Also the skinnier tires are the better grip in a winter they have"

Yup, a given.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #67 of 107 (permalink) Old 04-01-2018, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Del View Post
"Also the skinnier tires are the better grip in a winter they have"

Yup, a given.
Not so fast. This is an outdated practice now.


There is no practical difference in snow traction between wider tires and narrower tires unless the snow is wet and heavy. Slushplaning is reduced if the tire is narrower but grip is not increased. I'm taking the former practice of going minus one or two for winter tires. Most modern cars have big front brakes so minus one is as far as you can usually go.

For ice it is clear that wider tires work as well or better then narrower tires.

Rally cars using super narrow studded tires for special winter stages are not good examples for road cars on snowy roads.

On the other hand, whenever you use wider snow tires on bare pavement you experience a significant improvement in performance.

I have noted no advantage to minus one sizing for winter tires. I run minus one on my Jaguar only because my winter wheels are minus one because I carried them over from my previous XF which came with 18 in wheels, my new one came with 19 in wheels. As it is I have under 7 mm clearance between the 18 in rims and the front brake calipers.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new

Last edited by Michael Smith; 04-01-2018 at 04:22 PM.
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post #68 of 107 (permalink) Old 04-01-2018, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeCab View Post
IHMO this is an option box worth checking on the Giulia, whether it is RWD or AWD.

It can be confusing, as I believe there are several similarly named packages, but only one give you the mechanical LSD and the adaptive dampers.

Joe is correct about this.
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post #69 of 107 (permalink) Old 04-01-2018, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Subtle View Post
A guy who lives in snowy Montreal posts that the traction control in snow is hopeless. Keeps brake-snubbing the spinning wheel until the car can't move.
In October, a friend toured part of Italy in a rented small, but good-performing hatchback. Had TC on the front wheel drive. Going up a steep gravel road the TC keep snubbing the slipping wheel until the car came to a stop. Even with his foot on the peddle.
Backed off and took a scary run at it--and made it.
He is an experienced slalom competitor and motorcyclist.

No problem at all here in snowy Colorado...in the mountains...up 11,000 ft. passes...with run-flat tires.

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post #70 of 107 (permalink) Old 04-01-2018, 08:01 PM
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"Not so fast. This is an outdated practice now"

Not my personal experience in our warm slushy conditions. When I switched to wider tires in my Cooper S from the skinny stock, there was a definite degradation in traction and drivability. Tire compounds and tread designs have changed of course, but still... The evidence was there. You drive in different conditions, mostly where it is much colder than here. Coldness makes most of the difference.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #71 of 107 (permalink) Old 04-02-2018, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Pershyn View Post
The question is in a correct tires and driving skills. How is possible to drive 280HP RWD car with all season tires on ice or snow?
I would not expect traction at all, LSD won't help on snow, the car will stuck.
Tires for winter conditions should be winter and studded. It's common in north Europe. I think in Scandinavia, Ukraine and Russia more than 60% of drivers use studded tires.

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what??? what the what?
......all wrong, except yes, winter tires are better than all-seasons for snow driving. (and Alfa Romeo does not deliver Giulia with winter tires). I do not live in the Ukraine, but I am familiar with snow, and studded tires are illegal in most US states. Let's keep the conversation REAL and on point people.
BTW, LSD is SUPERIOR for snow, especially when combined with winter tires.
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post #72 of 107 (permalink) Old 04-03-2018, 01:38 AM
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LSD helps a bit, but you still need winter tires on winter. Without LSD car gets stuck very easily

-Antti: --ex Alfas:155 2.0 8V '92,155 2.0 16V '96,156 V6 '98,156 V6 '02
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post #73 of 107 (permalink) Old 04-03-2018, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
Most modern traction control systems have a setting allowing for some wheelspin. They vary in what it is called. Allowing wheelspin only works in snow if you have the correct tire: snow tires. As for gravel it is well known that abs type wheel speed control systems have difficulty with some types of granular covered surfaces. A mechanical LSD would do no better and especially a Torsen type.

Traction control systems cannot stop the car in the manner you suggest and anyone who claims to have experienced that is just wrong. Conditions limiting tire grip to zero stop the car and "taking a run at it" does not alter this. Taking a run at the slope is no different in a car with traction control to that with no traction control. That's just pretty basic physics.
Where you there?
My friend, Tom, is a highly experienced car and motorcycle guy.
If he said the car was Nanny-State braked to a halt on a steep gravel slope--the car was braked to a stop.
I accept his version.

Bob,
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post #74 of 107 (permalink) Old 04-03-2018, 05:49 AM
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Where you there?
My friend, Tom, is a highly experienced car and motorcycle guy.
If he said the car was Nanny-State braked to a halt on a steep gravel slope--the car was braked to a stop.
I accept his version.
Yes, if he did not turn off traction control it was 100% possible.

Quote:
TC (Traction Control) SYSTEM
The system automatically operates in the
event of slipping, loss of grip on wet
roads (aquaplaning) and acceleration on
slippery, snowy or icy roads, etc. on one
or both drive wheels. Depending on the
slipping conditions, two different control
systems are activated:
if the slipping involves both drive
wheels, the system intervenes, reducing
the power transmitted by the engine;
if the slipping only involves one of the
drive wheels, the BLD (Brake Limited
Differential) function is activated,
automatically braking the wheel which is
slipping (the behaviour of a self-locking
differential is simulated). This will
increase the engine torque transferred to
the wheel which isn't slipping.
In the first case, when two wheels spin (even with LSD) electronics can reduce engine power to 0

Quote:
45) For the correct operation of the TC
system, the tyres must of necessity be the
same make and type on all wheels, in perfect
condition and, above all, of the prescribed
type and dimensions.
46) TC performance features must not
induce the driver to take unnecessary or
unwarranted risks. Your driving style must
always be suited to the road conditions,
visibility and traffic. The driver is, in any
case, responsible for safe driving.
47) The TC system cannot overrule the
natural laws of physics, and cannot increase
the grip available according to the condition
of the road.

48) The TC system cannot prevent
accidents, including those due to excessive
speed on corners, driving on low-grip
surfaces or aquaplaning.
49) The capability of the TC must never be
tested irresponsibly and dangerously, in
such a way as to compromise personal
safety and the safety of others

Last edited by Max Pershyn; 04-03-2018 at 06:06 AM.
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post #75 of 107 (permalink) Old 04-03-2018, 07:25 AM
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If the traction control can brake the drive wheels to a standstill then the engine must stall. Does not happen on any car so equipped I have driven. What happens is the traction control ceases to operate as the computer calculates the drivers persistence will overheat the brakes.

What happens is the traction control uses brakes to slow individual spinning wheels then, if an electronic throttle is fitted, closes the throttle until wheelspin stops or forward motion ceases.

It is acknowledged that technically on some road surfaces: loose snow, sand on asphalt or loose gravel there is currently no traction control that can deliver peak grip. Some variable level of wheelspin must be permitted in order to develop peak contact patch grip. This same effect is well understood as it applies to abs and so far cannot be compensated for. On the introduction of abs Audi provided an off switch for this reason. Later legislation required that no off switch be fitted for abs notwithstanding this known deficiency. Regulators decided average drivers would have no idea when to switch abs off, and, since it has been proven that average drivers do not even know how to brake an abs equipped car correctly those regulators appear to have been correct.

Traction control systems on all the cars I have driven so equipped have a setting allowing for more wheelspin than would be ideal on solid surfaces. There is no advantage to an off switch as long as this intermediate setting is provided. Alfa has three settings labelled DNA but has not so far published what software effect is produced by each setting.

My Jaguar has a TRAC setting for loose snow or gravel (and for track driving where the driver feels the need to induce a little wheelspin, hairpins for example). It also has an off setting requiring pressing the TRAC button continuously for 11 seconds or more. My Subaru BRZ has a VSC setting selected by a button roughly equivalent to TRAC. It also has a mostly off setting if you press the off button continuously for more than 5 seconds. Subaru will not allow the driver to switch traction and stability control completely off, which in my experience with this particular car was a wise decision. There is a method supposed to be known only to service personnel seeking diagnosis of a fault but that also switches off abs, never a good idea for road use. The Subaru chassis is essentially unsafe to drive by ordinary drivers without the traction and stability control still active at a certain level of instability induced by the driver. In winter I discovered this ultimate backup stability control unintentionally. Although I had the nannies switched completely off it intervened. It was remarkably rapid in its application of correcting brake torque!!!!

Both cars will spin their drivewheels if traction control is fully on but there is insufficient grip to move the car, even the automatic equipped jaguar although with awd this needs to be deliberately set up by parking on glare ice. As I say, were that not the case the engine would have to be stalled when forward motion ceased completely, which never occurs.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new

Last edited by Michael Smith; 04-03-2018 at 07:32 AM.
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