2017 Giulia TI Lemon - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 42 (permalink) Old 12-05-2017, 11:25 PM
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Very sorry to hear about your experience with the Ti but I have had the exact opposite experience, 7000 miles of driving perfection and (unfortunately) I have to drive it a lot in stop and go traffic (I would advise buying the Corsa Exhaust from Centerline and Magnaflo, it really adds to the car).
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post #17 of 42 (permalink) Old 12-26-2017, 08:45 PM
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I can understand why he is frustrated, but he did violate the number one rule for buying a new model car. Either don't, waiting for a year or so for bugs to be eliminated or at least reduced, or be prepared to be the Beta tester for the new model, with a few unforeseen problems potentially rearing their ugly heads. I think that is a given.

Owners of anything new just have a way of discovering weird faults that the designers never imagined of, lol.
That was true 40 years ago in the auto industry, and it's just as true today. Spot on, Del.

Another thing. I spotted some posts on facebook recently that smelled of salespeople for competitive marques posting assassination stories on "their" new Alfas. I challenged one of them on the veracity of their "problem", but they never replied. I do not doubt Renee's sincerity here, but be aware that all's fair in love and economic war.

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post #18 of 42 (permalink) Old 12-26-2017, 10:05 PM
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I agree with Del that buying a brand new model is always a risk, plus to be really honest it is seriously wasting your money as cars, no matter what marque, devalue enormously over the first year.

BUT we second hand Alfa enthusiasts need somebody to buy the new ones


What we all need to remember is they are made in Italy and that can mean that it takes longer to get those parts necessary to get them going again. I imagine that a lot of those 14, etc. days was waiting for the part to turn up, as not a usual part for servicing. This would likely not happen for a locally made car, but then you have to put up with mere transport.

Same thing happens with Ducatis, and yes even with my 156v6, if I need more than just oil and filters I have to source from overseas and wait for them to turn up.
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post #19 of 42 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 06:54 PM
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...Another thing. I spotted some posts on facebook recently that smelled of salespeople for competitive marques posting assassination stories on "their" new Alfas...
This is a big problem with the internet, no police, no vetting, virtual anonymity and It’s rife with trolls. All of this information at our fingertips, problem is that most of it is wrong and everything that gets posted seems to remain there in perpetuity.

NOTE: I’m not referring to this thread nor the person who started it, just the general state of the internet as it stands today.
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post #20 of 42 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 08:02 PM
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It IS a problem. The internet has been turned into a real mess, no thanks to low lifes with too much time on their hands.

Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #21 of 42 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
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It IS a problem. The internet has been turned into a real mess, no thanks to low lifes with too much time on their hands.

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough”
Oo--V--oO There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental Illness".
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post #22 of 42 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 08:48 PM
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post #23 of 42 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 09:35 PM
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"* Comment removed*"

What?

Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 12-28-2017 at 03:25 PM.
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post #24 of 42 (permalink) Old 12-28-2017, 07:25 AM
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Always been Alfas are "for mechanics by mechanics".

Mine worked like clockwork, and I enjoyed the active participation in ownership.

That was then, and this is now. I'm not equipped to deal with electronics - hardware and software on a new car that fails me.

Are you?
That is the number one problem facing future owners of now modern cars. This is a serious consumer rights problem and not confined to cars. As you might expect, Tesla is at the forefront of this market manipulating technology originating with the idea of licensing software. You may own your car but you do not own any of its software.

Third party servicing is adversely affected by this unexpected abuse of copyright and patent laws invented for an entirely different purpose. Laws which should now be repealed in their entirety in my view. For an example you need look only to the music industry which thrives although the once all powerful recording publishers are almost all gone. The parallel is apt. Modern encryption technology is all that is needed to protect software property rights until the software is sufficiently out dated as to no longer require any property protection.

Canada has or is about to enact limited restriction on legal protection in this area, as it already has for prescription drugs. Car makers will be required to in effect open source their automotive software after the warranty expires and, if things don't improve, possibly sooner than that.

Bottom line? Current IP protection is far in excess of what is required to encourage the market for invention, the ostensible justification for patent protection and the underlying rationale for copyright protection of the "arts". New ideas themselves have never been protected for very good reasons. Software copyright comes perilously close to protecting merely the ideas rather than the particular expression of the ideas.

I predict a consumer revolt will quite soon occur in a democratic country which will eventually cause changes to the copyright and patent laws. This should be enormously beneficial to economic growth. The result will be a proliferation of cheap servicing products and service people who will easily "repair" a now modern car. The tip of the iceberg is already visible in aftermarket products replacing ignition coils, distributors and carburetors. Complete electronic engine management systems are now available to make old engines as reliable as modern ones, making them more powerful and fuel efficient at the same time.

Just right now, for us, there is a gaping hole in the capability for DIY servicing of even ten year old cars.
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Last edited by Michael Smith; 12-28-2017 at 07:31 AM.
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post #25 of 42 (permalink) Old 12-28-2017, 11:58 AM
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Hmmm ...

Michael, there is no need to open source the software. Software doesn't suddenly go wrong, sure it might be shipped with bugs but all software is and the car worked when new so no change there.

What happens is the sensors or wires fail (and why self driving cars scare me as they will always fail, or have their operation impeded, ie. bird dropping on them, etc.). So regarding DIY servicing, which the manufacturer does not care about or even want as they want a new unit to be bought, you just need to replace the faulty sensor(s) or damaged wire (this was the problem with the VW Golf's automatic as there was an internal short in a wire).

There already is hundreds of programs you can download to work with modern cars fault detection software, and you can buy the plugs/leads to connect your computer to them. My friend has one for Alfa Romeos and my 156v6 has been plugged in and old error codes erased.

Anyway manufacturers have finally made the mechanical aspects of a car so reliable that they are very close to being treated like mere appliances that the often touted 'run until it fails and just get a new one when it does' concept is very close. IMO once we have electric cars this will be reality, especially as the electric motor takes a lot of the brake wear away.
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post #26 of 42 (permalink) Old 12-28-2017, 03:32 PM
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I sure don't like the idea and use of electrical/electronic control of systems such as brakes and steering. since I suspect they may not have redundant backup. At least with mechanical/hydraulic systems there generally is ample warning that there is a fault somewhere, or a backup system for component failure.

Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #27 of 42 (permalink) Old 12-29-2017, 07:44 AM
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They do have redundant backup. Electronic throttles have two actuating motors that must "agree" or the system defaults to a limp home mode. If only one motor operates then the engine won't develop full power until the fault is repaired.

While I agree with the assertion that modern electronics have improved reliability of operation to very high levels it is also true that ECU occasionally fail completely. Software cannot "fail" but the hardware it runs on can. If the proper hardware is no longer manufactured, which is already the case, you need a copy of the software to install on some replacement device that is capable of running it.

I have little doubt that appropriate replacement sensors will continue to be available although it is possible that improvements will be made that are not ""legacied" for use by older software systems. My experience with desktop computers leaves me very cynical about that process.

As for reliability of software driven systems I am not as concerned as some may be. The problems facing inventors of fully autonomous cars are far more complex, unsolvable I'd say, than dealing with the possibility of failure of a system once invented. Running two parallel systems that must agree is pretty simple to arrange these days. An analogy is RAID hard drive systems for servers, which I believe is now outdated but still provides continuous computer operation even if a complete failure of one hard drive occurs.

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post #28 of 42 (permalink) Old 12-29-2017, 10:11 AM
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I'm not convinced by your argument. Knowing just how much pressure the manufacturers are under to save weight, reduce costs, and to increase fuel mileage by upcoming regulations, we just know that there will be "management dictated" shortcuts in the systems as there always have existed in the history of even the best of automobiles. Just count up the recalls which pop up almost every week.

Maybe not in the super expensive super cars, but the cars for the masses will have built in shortcuts, because there will be sooo many more manufactured, leading to the types of failures we have always seen (I've read of 50 cent fixes or changes for some fault in a car being rejected because that 50 cents truly adds up over the millions of a model manufactured).

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 12-29-2017 at 10:13 AM.
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post #29 of 42 (permalink) Old 12-29-2017, 11:18 AM
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Michael,

Please point me to the 2 actuator motors for the throttle on my 156v6. I don't believe their are 2, but could be wrong.

I agree with Del, manufacturers have proven that human lives mean less than profits many times. Plus can you imagine an autonomous car after it has been through a panel beater ... heck I lost most of my Sud's trim and all they had to do was final prep and paint! Maybe this change will result in the death of panel beaters and the mechanic trade? ... and no I do not at all believe autonomous cars will mean no car accidents; quite the opposite in fact.

Pete

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post #30 of 42 (permalink) Old 12-29-2017, 01:08 PM
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Michael,

Please point me to the 2 actuator motors for the throttle on my 156v6. I don't believe their are 2, but could be wrong.

I agree with Del, manufacturers have proven that human lives mean less than profits many times. Plus can you imagine an autonomous car after it has been through a panel beater ... heck I lost most of my Sud's trim and all they had to do was final prep and paint! Maybe this change will result in the death of panel beaters and the mechanic trade? ... and no I do not at all believe autonomous cars will mean no car accidents; quite the opposite in fact.

Pete
Two throttle position sensors and two pedal position potentiometers, rather than two separate motors, apparently. Not sure where I read about redundant motors.

As for heartless car makers I refer to Volvo which invented the three point safety belt and, I believe, made it available to all manufacturers. There are other examples of safety engineering pre-dating regulation.

Much of safety related engineering was stymied by the ignorance of consumers rather than the venality of car makers. Private business builds what people will buy. Many times safety features were declined by buyers for long periods before education or regulation convinced them otherwise.

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Last edited by Michael Smith; 12-29-2017 at 03:35 PM.
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