Want manual giulia.... - Page 59 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #871 of 884 (permalink) Old 05-07-2019, 09:02 PM
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The Giulia sells a thousand cars a month, maybe, in the USA. Manual transmission take up would be less than 10% so maybe a hundred cars a month.

Not going to happen.

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post #872 of 884 (permalink) Old 05-07-2019, 09:14 PM
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The Giulia sells a thousand cars a month, maybe, in the USA. Manual transmission take up would be less than 10% so maybe a hundred cars a month.

Not going to happen.
You do not know that. It is possible that if FCA sold the manual that Alfa Romeo might be selling 1500 cars a month in the USA. Just because you don't like modern cars being manual, does not mean other buyers agree with you. Choice is a very important marketing point.

BTW: I never buy automatic Alfas because historically their automatic transmissions have been incredibly unreliable. For example, I can purchase a 147/156 with selespeed for pocket change ... but then I have to find around $2k just to purchase the parts to fix it. Yes I had a boss who owned a 147 selespeed (same gearbox), loved the car but fixing the selespeed cost too much and led to it being sold as quickly as possible ... before it failed again.

This could be a good thing for future Guilia Q owners in America, as they will be able to purchased dead automatic ones extremely cheap and unbolt and throw away the ZF, and chuck in some crude GM thing ...

Pete
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post #873 of 884 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 05:19 AM
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I don't run FCA. Whether anyone can know whether there's a market for manual shift Giulias or not is beside the point. FCA management sees no such market. Ergo, no manual shift Giulias will be made.

Your anecdotal reference to the selespeed is irrelevant. Totally different gearbox to a planetary automatic. Also, obsolete technology. Interestingly, though, the technology of the selespeed type automated manual gearboxes was used to develop the DCT and the computer controlled lockup clutch in the torque converter planetary transmission. Very precise computer control of clutch engagement and disengagement is the fundamental advance in transmission engineering allowing for the DCT and the ZF 6 spd and later gearboxes. A feature originally designed to improve fuel economy by locking out the slippage of a torque converter morphed into an integral part of the gear shifting process.

That was the breakthrough every automotive engineer had been looking for since the deficiencies in the user interface with the manual transmission was first identified as a significant obstacle to widespread use of the automobile, even by women drivers!!!!!

The pre selector, synchromesh, and the torque converter were all technologies developed to more widely market the automobile to less than perfectly skilled drivers.

That process took a huge leap forward when it was realized that a computer can do a much better job of shifting gears than any human. 2003.
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post #874 of 884 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 10:43 AM
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post #875 of 884 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by PSk View Post
You do not know that. It is possible that if FCA sold the manual that Alfa Romeo might be selling 1500 cars a month in the USA. Just because you don't like modern cars being manual, does not mean other buyers agree with you. Choice is a very important marketing point.

BTW: I never buy automatic Alfas because historically their automatic transmissions have been incredibly unreliable. For example, I can purchase a 147/156 with selespeed for pocket change ... but then I have to find around $2k just to purchase the parts to fix it. Yes I had a boss who owned a 147 selespeed (same gearbox), loved the car but fixing the selespeed cost too much and led to it being sold as quickly as possible ... before it failed again.

This could be a good thing for future Guilia Q owners in America, as they will be able to purchased dead automatic ones extremely cheap and unbolt and throw away the ZF, and chuck in some crude GM thing ...

Pete
I'd be somewhat surprised if that's the case. The Zf 8 speed has proven to be a very reliable transmission in other vehicles. That said, I still daydream of maybe doing a Giulia Q manual swap someday after they have become cheap and one can afford to tinker with them. Ideally, you'd find a European recycler willing to provide all the parts from a wrecked example. Toughest thing will be hacking the software to think its a manual and/or swapping for a manual ECU without causing software issues with other components (such as the differential). Swapping in a Tremec or similar would probably be quite difficult to do unless you don't mind lots of warning lights as I suspect even the manual transmission "talks" to the engine ECU.

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post #876 of 884 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 12:10 PM
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The manual transmission that fits is also a ZF. BMW uses it and recently suggested that they'd have to tone down the maximum torque on their upcoming M3/4 series if they decide to offer a manual transmission to the estimated maximum 3% of total customers who might want one. That'd be 3% of M3 and M4 customers. Most of those will be Americans.

Jaguar fits this gearbox to their F Type and XE but not to the big diesel version nor to the supercharged V6 or V8: too much torque.

A manual ZF would fit the TI or base Giulia but the QV would just blow it up.

Incidentally, 3% takeup is still a bigger market than for BEV.....and that's after a bunch of government moneybags gets thrown at EV buyers. Maybe that's the answer. Lobby for manual gearbox subsidies....

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post #877 of 884 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 12:16 PM
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I'd be somewhat surprised if that's the case. The Zf 8 speed has proven to be a very reliable transmission in other vehicles.
Good to read.

Pete

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post #878 of 884 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 12:26 PM
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The manual transmission that fits is also a ZF. BMW uses it and recently suggested that they'd have to tone down the maximum torque on their upcoming M3/4 series if they decide to offer a manual transmission to the estimated maximum 3% of total customers who might want one. That'd be 3% of M3 and M4 customers. Most of those will be Americans.
The BMW manual may also be a ZF, but I wouldn't necessarily assume it would work for a swap. It may use a different housing that would prevent it from fitting in the Giulia. The only reason they would need to turn down the torque for manual drivers is if they can't be bothered to source a higher-rated manual transmission. There are cars with manual transmission with well over 1,000, and there are even OEM manuals in the 700+ hp range with torque to boot (i.e. Doge Hellcat, Corvette ZR1). Also, the Q was offered in manual, but I don't know if its the same transmission that was used in the lesser Giulia models offered in manual. But clearly, Alfa had a manual that wouldn't blow up in the Quad.

As for take rates, I think you just made up that 3% number from thin air. A much better methodology would look at current take rates in the M cars.

Current take rate for the m2/3/4 is in the 20% range.

https://carbuzz.com/news/bmw-told-us...an-enthusiasts

It's actually around 50% for the M2, which is arguably the most enthusiast-oriented model:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...ssionsfor-now/

Even if you just wildly assume that take rates fall by 50% for no particular reason, that's still a long way from 3%.
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post #879 of 884 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 12:42 PM
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I still daydream of maybe doing a Giulia Q manual swap someday after they have become cheap and one can afford to tinker with them. Ideally, you'd find a European recycler willing to provide all the parts from a wrecked example. Toughest thing will be hacking the software to think its a manual and/or swapping for a manual ECU without causing software issues with other components (such as the differential). Swapping in a Tremec or similar would probably be quite difficult to do unless you don't mind lots of warning lights as I suspect even the manual transmission "talks" to the engine ECU.
There's a fellow swapping a manual QV drivetrain into a new 124. Hopefully we'll be able to stand on his shoulders
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post #880 of 884 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 02:18 PM
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That said, I still daydream of maybe doing a Giulia Q manual swap someday after they have become cheap and one can afford to tinker with them. Ideally, you'd find a European recycler willing to provide all the parts from a wrecked example. Toughest thing will be hacking the software to think its a manual and/or swapping for a manual ECU without causing software issues with other components (such as the differential). Swapping in a Tremec or similar would probably be quite difficult to do unless you don't mind lots of warning lights as I suspect even the manual transmission "talks" to the engine ECU.
Throw the ECU in the bin and use a Motronic system to control the engine. After all we want the most involving experience, so I personally would not want the engine to reduce throttle when the clutch is depressed, or limit torque when in first gear, control wheel spin, etc.

Drifting sideways off topic: IMO the best change they could make to F1 to get REAL driving back, would be to ensure that the engine throttle butterflies are 100% controlled mechanically by the drivers accelerator pedal. Currently to make these, I think amazing, F1 power plants work in a linear torque mode fashion, the ECU does crazy things to the throttle butterflies ... take that away and Lewis Hamilton would potentially spin off into the barriers (until he adapted, as I'm sure he could).
Pete

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post #881 of 884 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 02:28 PM
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Throw the ECU in the bin and use a Motronic system to control the engine. After all we want the most involving experience, so I personally would not want the engine to reduce throttle when the clutch is depressed, or limit torque when in first gear, control wheel spin, etc.
Easier said than done in this case, I think. The car won't pass inspection without the factory ECU (in Texas at least). Plus, it's not clear what other systems might be inter-dependent. For example, the brake by wire, the differential, the ABS, all talk to the ECU. Here's an article that talks about all the problems even a pro race team had trying to deal with all the software and electrics issue when using non-factory systems in a Corvette:

https://jalopnik.com/turning-a-salva...pai-1796069041

Some of the things you talk about can be done on many models with the factory ECU. Plus, I the QV already allows you to turn driver aids like traction control off.
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post #882 of 884 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 03:46 PM
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Easier said than done in this case, I think. The car won't pass inspection without the factory ECU (in Texas at least). Plus, it's not clear what other systems might be inter-dependent. For example, the brake by wire, the differential, the ABS, all talk to the ECU. Here's an article that talks about all the problems even a pro race team had trying to deal with all the software and electrics issue when using non-factory systems in a Corvette:

https://jalopnik.com/turning-a-salva...pai-1796069041

Some of the things you talk about can be done on many models with the factory ECU. Plus, I the QV already allows you to turn driver aids like traction control off.
.

Sounds like it is best to buy an engine and say repower a GTV6 with it
Pete

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post #883 of 884 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 03:53 PM
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Car magazine, February 2019, page 89, George Kacher quoted as saying the take up rate for manual transmissions is 3%. He's talking about Europe. Not talking about the M car range specifically.

I note that the Giulia QF was equipped with a ZF manual S6 53 good for 600 Nm of torque. But in the same issue of Car they report the only manual 6 spd M3/M4 will be detuned from the power and torque outputs available on most of the range because the strongest manual gearbox they have is that S6 53. To be bashed Pure they will be analogous to Porsche's whacky 911R.

So, no, ZF isn't going to be building any stronger manual gearboxes. Top rated cars will all have to be automatics of some sort. Tremec gearboxes aren't very good, just btw.

ZF Automatics from around 2008 onward are very robust, sealed for life under normal service conditions and handle a wide range of maximum torques.

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post #884 of 884 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 04:12 PM
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I'm closing this thread until some people can learn how to play nice.

Name calling is not acceptable.

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