Want manual giulia.... - Page 55 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #811 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 03:13 PM
Del
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The new Giulia is just one of our disappointments in life. Easy enough, though, to go on to other things. There's a whole Universe out there to ponder. Unless some sort of miracle occurs, the Alfas we have now are the last ones we will have bought.

Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

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post #812 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 06:40 PM
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Man what a depressing thread!

I see no reason you cannot have both if you choose. I for one crave more from this giulia but for everyday driving around and spirited drives, I still have fun in it. LOTS OF FUN. Again you have to change your mindset. I am still not used to this thing, I still grab the pretend shift knob to shift. That said, I am in search for giulia 105! I just could not keep the 164S any longer and needed a driver that I could hop in, drive and not worry about much at all. I have that with the new Giulia. I do not regret selling the 164S for a Giulia. I may be without a analog car, for the moment, but I do not fret! One day in the future I will have it back again and enjoy throwing it through the gears. For now, I learn this new stuff and learn to drive this new stuff. It's fun, it's different it's new. I am enjoying learning this new technology that I am not use to at all. I'd prefer to know both. Not just stick to one. I like to keep learning.

Maybe one day in the near future I find a way to slap in a manual from the EU out of a diesel. Could be an option....


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post #813 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 09:05 PM
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The ZF 8 spd automatic is the finest transmission yet devised. Of any type. The latest BMW M5 is equipped with one.

Let that sink in. A BMW M5.

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post #814 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 11:15 PM
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My suggestion for you, DanB, is to take a short-term lease on a Giulia Ti Sport, or Lusso if you prefer, with the Q2 Performance Package and see for yourself that the vehicle is an Alfa Romeo through and through. No question about it.
I guess you missed my earlier posts in this thread? I've driven the Giulia multiple times, including a Quadrifoglio. There is a lot to praise about this car, and I was very close to buying one. After introspection I've come to realize I get a great deal of my daily driving enjoyment from interacting with the manual transmission. I'm not going to spend money on something that doesn't give me that.
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post #815 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-20-2019, 02:32 PM
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Hence why there are so many 2017 and 2018 Quads unsold.

On top of that, there is the my male part is too short 505hp engine ... I guess in 2001 when my 156v6 was made, some said the same thing. But 300hp more ... ??? ... just turning fuel into CO2 for no good reason. Like the enormous 8.1 ltr new Ford truck engine ... ridiculous.
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post #816 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-21-2019, 08:00 AM
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But it isn't turning fuel into CO2 for no reason. Most of the time the engine runs as an unboosted 3 cylinder 1.5 litre engine. Well, probably it runs lightly boosted which gives the best volumetric efficiency per unit power produced, as Keith Duckworth pointed out in the 70's.

So, kind of a variable geometry Dick, if you prefer to use a "metaphor".

The most interesting element of this thread is the extent to which pushing and releasing a clutch pedal creates the illusion of driver involvement in the process of car control. The reality is, as any competition driver will confirm, humans just aren't any good at operating a foot controlled clutch. Ditto using a stick on the floor of the car to select a transmission ratio, itself a requirement only because of the inherent deficiencies of the internal combustion engine. Humans aren't really any good at doing that either.

Porsche just joined the Jaguar club by ditching the movable floor mounted stick selector for their PDK gearboxes. Indeed, the major flaw in the ZF 8 spd is the totally stupid design of the selector stick, well documented. A prime example of engineers completely failing to properly deal with the weak link in car control: the driver.

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post #817 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-21-2019, 11:51 AM
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Well that is great to read Michael.
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post #818 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-21-2019, 11:57 AM
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Obviously all the piston cars are loosers here in a comparison, acceleration and braking. Suppose the new Giulia hybrid will be a competitor in this class, 4WD , more power, better emissions etc. Want a Giulia manual: Import from Germany!

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post #819 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-21-2019, 02:48 PM
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It seems to me that everyone, black, white, red, old, young, male, female, your poor, downtrodden, huddled masses; dog, cat, bigfoot, Yeti, Aliens, seem to understand that we LIKE driving a manual transmission: regardless of which is more efficient, quicker shifting, or whatever. Well everyone except Micheal in Cowtown....

That said, I am really contemplating pulling the trigger on a Ti....it is a very sweet car to drive.

And I have my 69 Spider for something more....antiquated?
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post #820 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-21-2019, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
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It seems to me that everyone, black, white, red, old, young, male, female, your poor, downtrodden, huddled masses; dog, cat, bigfoot, Yeti, Aliens, seem to understand that we LIKE driving a manual transmission: regardless of which is more efficient, quicker shifting, or whatever. Well everyone except Micheal in Cowtown....

That said, I am really contemplating pulling the trigger on a Ti....it is a very sweet car to drive.

And I have my 69 Spider for something more....antiquated?
Cake and eat it too type of deal! I like it but then again I may be an alien yeti that likes such things as antiquated human shifting mechanical jalopy environmental disaster as much as futuristic lighting fast automatics with zero human to metal/wire/electrical connection, no feel, almost lobotomy like vehicle. Call me crazy or whatever but I like it all. The Giulia does not take away driving pleasure. You'd want an "ultimate driving machine" for that!


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post #821 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 08:29 AM
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This thread defines the automation v driver control issue currently dominating AI and robotics as applied to the car industry, well to vehicle transport generally as heavy freight and local distribution freight are likely first candidates for fully automated operations.

So, foot pedal operated clutch. How direct is that really? Is a Bowden cable equal to hydraulics? What about an electrical actuation? What if the electrical actuation could mimic the foot pedal feel of purely analog mechanical actuation or be performed using the hand only, or possibly just a fingertip? After all, electronic throttles do this and that's a big illusion for the driver. In reality the computer controls the throttle actuation from a digital signal derived from an analog input, the driver's foot (leg actually). The actual throttle operation is no longer directly proportional to the movement of the throttle pedal itself. The Giulia takes that a step further by doing the same to the brake pedal. Steering? No longer direct nor even is it possible to perform in analog fashion. Electrical power steering means the driver's analog input is converted to a digital input to the steering power assist motors.

A stick shift appears to be direct but isn't really. The vast majority of drivers could not and in any event do not shift any gears. The gears remain in constant mesh. All that the lever does is move a sleeve inside the transmission, the gearbox does the rest. What is the minimum requirement for the full Monty manual transmission experience?

Is a Bowden cable shifter acceptable? Porsche uses these. Or do they have to be a collection of rods and universals? Alfa uses rods and joints for the Alfetta and 164 transaxle layouts. Is that direct enough or do you have to be able to shift right into the top of the gearbox? How about a now obsolete pre-selector type?

The ZF automatic since the introduction of the 6 spd utilizes an electronically actuated and controlled friction clutch to transmit the drive. There is a torque converter but it is hardly in use. It is used for starting off and idling while in D, that's it. It is not a necessary component any longer (Mercedes builds a planetary automatic transmission without) but it also provides a very handy CVT effect so remains in place.

So, a direct drive manually shifted transmission using a fingertip controller as found in the Giulia, the BMW and Mercedes high performance cars is not the equal of a manually shifted direct drive transmission using a foot operated clutch pedal?

Then there's the performance aspect. The automatic can easily outperform the manual, straight lines, corners, under braking, in the wet etc etc.

Surely the driving experience relates almost entirely to the steering, acceleration and braking controlled by the driver. Having to shift gears in the elaborate fashion required by an old style manual gearbox detracts from the purity of driving. It adds nothing real.

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post #822 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
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A stick shift appears to be direct but isn't really. The vast majority of drivers could not and in any event do not shift any gears. The gears remain in constant mesh. All that the lever does is move a sleeve inside the transmission, the gearbox does the rest. What is the minimum requirement for the full Monty manual transmission experience?
Your understanding of the manual gearbox is not correct. Yes the gears remain in constant mesh, the gearbox does NOT do anything by itself. The driver (only) moves the selection hub which engages that gear (i.e. connects it to the output shaft). So yes when a driver changes gear using a manual gearbox, there is NO automation, nothing is done by itself, the driver has to select the gear they want and engage that gear ... MANUALLY. And if you do not time the clutch actuation correctly the selection hub will protest and get it's teeth worn/damaged.


This is why I do not like paddle shifts. The cars I have access to, due to my financial position, are actually just automatics and the paddle asks the computer controlled automatic transmission to change gear. There is such a massive delay as this happens it is pathetic. You end up having to account for that delay and hope that you calculated it correctly ... just weird and useless.

Now a Ferrari 458 will be very different, but my families old Labrador could change gear just as well as I can if I put peanut butter on one of the paddles. There is no personal satisfaction of a skill mastered there ... unlike when I change down in my 156v6, with a completely unnecessary heal and toe blip (just to prove to myself that at 51 I can still do it) and double de-clutch (again completely unnecessary but the gear slides in ever so smoothly, making me feel very satisfied).

I am a car enthusiast, not because I like the look of them, the sound, speed, etc. but because I find driving them satisfies something in my brain, and makes me feel enjoyment at a skill (I think) I've mastered. And the neat thing about manuals, is that you can practice that gear changing skill at all speeds, i.e. even with my family in the car just going shopping, when steering, accelerator and braking inputs for other driving factors are so below any levels that require skill there is no possible satisfaction enjoyment (woo hoo, you have turned into a shopping centre car park at 20 km/h, does not engage that something in my brain)
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post #823 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 02:47 PM
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Sure. Describe gearshifting any way you want. Just try and force a baulk ring synchronizer to synchronize when you wish rather than when it's ready. Triple cone synchros on big gears like first or second can be really baulky when cold. You're not getting that gearchange when you want it, that's for sure.

Double clutching is totally pointless, btw, although I learned how on knackered gearboxes where it is necessary. Your belief that double clutching and rev matching leads to smooth gear engagement is an illusion. You are actually making the synchronizers work harder than they need to. There is no need whatsoever to engage the clutch during a downshift on a synchronized gearbox not in need of repair. Indeed, you add wear to the synchronizers every time you do that.

As for the brain power required to know which gear to select I point out that automatic gearboxes use computing power quite a bit more limited than your dog's brain.....


And the ZF shifts in 200 ms. Ever actually timed one of your shifts?

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post #824 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
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Double clutching is totally pointless, btw, although I learned how on knackered gearboxes where it is necessary. Your belief that double clutching and rev matching leads to smooth gear engagement is an illusion. You are actually making the synchronizers work harder than they need to. There is no need whatsoever to engage the clutch during a downshift on a synchronized gearboxes not in need of repair. Indeed, you add wear to the synchronizers every time you do that.
Completely correct (other than smooth gear engagement being an illusion), and yes I'm aware that it is not good for the gearbox ... I just enjoy doing it (when I have to rebuild the gearbox, I will tell myself off ... and then keep doing it ). I do lots of things purely for enjoyment. I don't need to pat our dogs, for example, but they and I enjoy it.

Not going into gear change speed because that just shows you don't get it.
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post #825 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 03:06 PM
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Sure. Describe gearshifting any way you want. Just try and force a baulk ring synchronizer to synchronize when you wish rather than when it's ready. Triple cone synchros on big gears like first or second can be really baulky when cold. You're not getting that gearchange when you want it, that's for sure.

Double clutching is totally pointless, btw, although I learned how on knackered gearboxes where it is necessary. Your belief that double clutching and rev matching leads to smooth gear engagement is an illusion. You are actually making the synchronizers work harder than they need to. There is no need whatsoever to engage the clutch during a downshift on a synchronized gearbox not in need of repair. Indeed, you add wear to the synchronizers every time you do that.

As for the brain power required to know which gear to select I point out that automatic gearboxes use computing power quite a bit more limited than your dog's brain.....


And the ZF shifts in 200 ms. Ever actually timed one of your shifts?
On the track, rev matching makes quite a difference. You will experience driveline shock otherwise. I could never get a smooth transition from corner entry to apex until I learned to rev match and heel-toe.

The thing about shift speed- Sure, I can’t shift in 200ms, but in the 200ms from when I hit a paddle to when the shift happens, I’m doing nothing. On the manual, I am doing something during the entirety of the shift, so there is no perception of lag between input and action.

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