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post #796 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 04:16 PM
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Despite intense claims that Electric cars will flop, these cars sell more and more, and the Tesla Model 3 is a real hit!

https://thedriven.io/2019/04/15/tesl...ric-car-in-us/

However electric cars have not been developed over 100 years, but only quite recently, so the technical envelope has to be developed. As I mentioned earlier the battery could overheat in track conditions, something that has to be handled by better cooling etc. However race conditions are really not relevant for people who buy a car for everyday use!

Here an expert trying a race prepared Tesla on track in hot condition. Alas short trip.

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post #797 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 07:00 PM
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Facts are that EV sales are close to zero unless heavily subsidized. This is very easy to prove.

Fact is the Tesla is not very good to drive for a driving enthusiast. Boring and uncomfortable. The build quality is very poor for the (subsidized) price. No sensible buyer would choose a Tesla over a similarly priced (even after subsidization) ICE powered car.

Battery technology is currently completely stalled with no prospect for improvements in energy density of the scale required to come close to matching ICE power.

The current driver for adoption of any form of EV is the frankly loony idea that burning fossil fuels will cause the demise of the human race. In the next five years or so this amazing collective delusion experienced only in the Western industrial countries will be conclusively demonstrated to be complete collywaddle. At which point the "investment" in EV technology will prove to be a complete waste of money and the whole segment of the transportation industry currently caught up in this hysteria will suddenly collapse.

Currently BEV market penetration is under 1% of total with no sign of accelerating rate of penetration. It is a rich economy's delusion, nothing more.
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post #798 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 02:03 AM
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Facts are that EV sales are close to zero unless heavily subsidized. This is very easy to prove.

Fact is the Tesla is not very good to drive for a driving enthusiast. Boring and uncomfortable. The build quality is very poor for the (subsidized) price. No sensible buyer would choose a Tesla over a similarly priced (even after subsidization) ICE powered car.

Battery technology is currently completely stalled with no prospect for improvements in energy density of the scale required to come close to matching ICE power.

The current driver for adoption of any form of EV is the frankly loony idea that burning fossil fuels will cause the demise of the human race. In the next five years or so this amazing collective delusion experienced only in the Western industrial countries will be conclusively demonstrated to be complete collywaddle. At which point the "investment" in EV technology will prove to be a complete waste of money and the whole segment of the transportation industry currently caught up in this hysteria will suddenly collapse.

Currently BEV market penetration is under 1% of total with no sign of accelerating rate of penetration. It is a rich economy's delusion, nothing more.
Your assumptions are yours only, you have absolutely no contact with reality! Development in the car industry comes very fast indeed and in the EU from 2021 car emitting more than 95g CO2/km(on average for the whole fleet!) will be fined so hard that it will not be possible to market that car. EU is a big market leading in the change towards low emission and Electric cars. Cars not conforming to the new regulations will not be sold here. Change will eventually also come to remote places etc.
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post #799 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 05:56 AM
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Fact is the Tesla is not very good to drive for a driving enthusiast. Boring and uncomfortable. The build quality is very poor for the (subsidized) price. No sensible buyer would choose a Tesla over a similarly priced (even after subsidization) ICE powered car.

Battery technology is currently completely stalled with no prospect for improvements in energy density of the scale required to come close to matching ICE power.

The current driver for adoption of any form of EV is the frankly loony idea that burning fossil fuels will cause the demise of the human race. In the next five years or so this amazing collective delusion experienced only in the Western industrial countries will be conclusively demonstrated to be complete collywaddle. At which point the "investment" in EV technology will prove to be a complete waste of money and the whole segment of the transportation industry currently caught up in this hysteria will suddenly collapse.

Currently BEV market penetration is under 1% of total with no sign of accelerating rate of penetration. It is a rich economy's delusion, nothing more.

You have clearly never driven a Tesla. They are fantastic to drive. You are always in the power band and throttle response is instant. So much better than even the best automatics that still can get caught flat footed and take time to kick down. All of the weight of the vehicle is on the floor, which gives it a sense of agility you normally don't get in regular luxury sedans. They are also extremely comfortable because there is next to no noise or vibration from the powertrain. Things will only get better as automakers like Porsche with better quality get into the game. The Taycan should be fantastic.

Go argue about climate change in the giant thread devoted to that topic. But the best reasons for EV adoption have nothing whatsoever to do with the environment. While I will always cherish our old Alfas, EVs present some very exciting possibilities to provide outrageous performance in totally streetable packages.
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post #800 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Gabor K. View Post
Your assumptions are yours only, you have absolutely no contact with reality! Development in the car industry comes very fast indeed and in the EU from 2021 car emitting more than 95g CO2/km(on average for the whole fleet!) will be fined so hard that it will not be possible to market that car. EU is a big market leading in the change towards low emission and Electric cars. Cars not conforming to the new regulations will not be sold here. Change will eventually also come to remote places etc.
Current government regulations are as permanent as the election cycle.....

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post #801 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 06:47 AM
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You have clearly never driven a Tesla. They are fantastic to drive. You are always in the power band and throttle response is instant. So much better than even the best automatics that still can get caught flat footed and take time to kick down. All of the weight of the vehicle is on the floor, which gives it a sense of agility you normally don't get in regular luxury sedans. They are also extremely comfortable because there is next to no noise or vibration from the powertrain. Things will only get better as automakers like Porsche with better quality get into the game. The Taycan should be fantastic.

Go argue about climate change in the giant thread devoted to that topic. But the best reasons for EV adoption have nothing whatsoever to do with the environment. While I will always cherish our old Alfas, EVs present some very exciting possibilities to provide outrageous performance in totally streetable packages.
I have driven a Tesla model S. Boring. Poor build quality. Did I mention they are extremely expensive and very poor value for money. I live in a no subsidy jurisdiction (no fuel tax is the only de facto subsidy here, EVs don't even get the egregious HOV privileges extended to them in less enlightened jurisdictions). Enthusiast drivers here wouldn't dream of paying for a Tesla at full price required here.

Electric motors do not have a power band nor do they have throttle, technically speaking. Electric motors happen to develop peak torque just before they begin turning and torque declines in a fairly linear fashion up to maximum rpm. I did not find the Tesla noticeably comfortable. I did find it exceptionally boring with mundane handling. I would prefer the most humble of ICE powered vehicle even one equipped with a CVT, which mimics electric power trains reasonably well allowing the ICE to operate very smoothly and impressively within its very real powerband. Skilled drivers don't get left flat footed, it's called anticipation (fighter pilots call it situational awareness).

My passing reference to CO2 emissions was not about climate change but about allowing idiots to run government. Well, idiots should not run anything, they need constant supervision. Politicians generally know very little about technical matters. The current crop seem markedly deficient and seem absurdly proud of their ignorance.

Time will prove me right on this front, and not too much time now. The whole CO2 edifice is set to come crashing to the ground along with any and all associated regulation and technologies. Fossil fuel consumption continues to rise and proven reserves are also increasing. Cost of producing fossil fuels continues to fall.
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Last edited by Michael Smith; 04-18-2019 at 07:04 AM.
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post #802 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 07:03 AM
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I have driven a Tesla model S. Boring. Poor build quality. Electric motors do not have a power band nor do they have throttle, technically speaking. Electric motors happen to develop peak torque just before they begin turning and torque declines in a fairly linear fashion up to maximum rpm. I did not find the Tesla noticeably comfortable. I did find it exceptionally boring with mundane handling. I would prefer the most humble of ICE powered vehicle even one equipped with a CVT, which mimics electric power trains reasonably well allowing the ICE to operate very smoothly and impressively within its very real powerband.

My passing reference to CO2 emissions was not about climate change but about allowing idiots to run government. Well, idiots should not run anything, they need cibstsnt supervision. Politicians generally know very little about technical matters. The current crop seem marekedky deficient and seem absurdly proud of their ignorance.

Time will prove me right on this front, and not too much time now. The whole CO2 edifice is set to come crashing to the ground along with any and all associated regulation and technologies. Fossil fuel consumption continues to rise and proven reserves are also increasing. Cost of producing fossil fuels continues to fall.
Not sure how you found the Model S boring unless you just puttered around in it. There's a pretty intense head rush giving a Tesla full throttle.

I'm in the oil and gas industry. Costs to produce fossil fuels are rising over time. Hydraulic fracking is incredible technology, but it is not cheap and is a logistic feat. That's part of the reason why attempts to take it outside the U.S. have been mostly failures. Frontiers like northern Alaska and ultra-deep offshore projects are similarly far from cheap. The super cheap to produce fields like the Ghawar field in Saudi Arabia are in decline and will increasingly have to be propped up with secondary and tertiary recovery methods (which costs). None of this is to say we will run out of oil any time soon (or ever), but humanity has mostly picked the low hanging fruit. Plus, we have a surfeit of natural gas due to fracking, which is a great product for power plants to burn.

Let's come back to this thread in 10 years. If EVs are being sold in lower numbers than today, I owe you a set of brake pads for the vehicle of your choice

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post #803 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 08:18 AM
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Tesla. They are fantastic to drive.
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I have driven a Tesla model S. Boring.
Imagine that... Driving enjoyment is subjective. Seems like manufacturers would want to offer lots of options to satisfy a variety of customers.

Day 883 of me not buying a Giulia because it lacks a manual option.
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post #804 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 09:06 AM
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Have driven the original roadster, and ridden extensively in the Model S and Model X. All of them accelerate like stink, and both of us thought the Model S at least was very nicely and impressively built. Reminded us of my friend's Audi 6. Nothing boring about driving/riding in them. Don't know about the Model 3 yet (don't like the layout of its dash).

Alas, big drawback for us is the lack of a manual gearbox, which of course they don't need at all. Why have have a super car if you can't shift some gears for fun, lol. Of course as well, they all are far too quiet.

No manual gearbox, no sale.

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62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #805 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 03:09 PM Thread Starter
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To be honest 90% of drivers should be in whatever powered self drive vehicles......weíre on this AlfaBB because we are passionate about our cars and manuals along with fossil fuel engine sounds are essential elements.

Go start up another thread on EVís and auto, just let us tinker with our vices without being told what we should be driving.

How boring would track days be in an auto EV????............Actually please donít ask as am over the discussion.



FCA, please build us some manual models. Happy Easter
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post #806 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabor K. View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
Facts are that EV sales are close to zero unless heavily subsidized. This is very easy to prove.

Fact is the Tesla is not very good to drive for a driving enthusiast. Boring and uncomfortable. The build quality is very poor for the (subsidized) price. No sensible buyer would choose a Tesla over a similarly priced (even after subsidization) ICE powered car.

Battery technology is currently completely stalled with no prospect for improvements in energy density of the scale required to come close to matching ICE power.

The current driver for adoption of any form of EV is the frankly loony idea that burning fossil fuels will cause the demise of the human race. In the next five years or so this amazing collective delusion experienced only in the Western industrial countries will be conclusively demonstrated to be complete collywaddle. At which point the "investment" in EV technology will prove to be a complete waste of money and the whole segment of the transportation industry currently caught up in this hysteria will suddenly collapse.

Currently BEV market penetration is under 1% of total with no sign of accelerating rate of penetration. It is a rich economy's delusion, nothing more.
Your assumptions are yours only, you have absolutely no contact with reality! Development in the car industry comes very fast indeed and in the EU from 2021 car emitting more than 95g CO2/km(on average for the whole fleet!) will be fined so hard that it will not be possible to market that car. EU is a big market leading in the change towards low emission and Electric cars. Cars not conforming to the new regulations will not be sold here. Change will eventually also come to remote places etc.
FCA has already had to pay Tesla a few hundred million dollars for carbon credits in Europe. As for manual Alfas in the future... It's over. We'll never see it.

Last edited by Alfistaa; 04-18-2019 at 07:01 PM.
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post #807 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 08:43 PM
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The Alfas I have now are the last ones I will buy.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #808 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 06:35 AM
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The Alfas I have now are the last ones I will buy.
More troubling is the idea that the retiring baby boom generation (in Canada that's 25% of the entire population, that's 25% even after allowing for the increases due to a huge cumulative number of immigrants who arrived as this generation aged without replacing itself) may not continue to consume at the rates required to sustain the current system of economic expansion and investment of savings.

In car terms, how often will retired folks buy anything new other than immediate consumables like food or travel? How long will baby boomers keep their current car, regardless of brand?

Lack of demand and over reaching government regulation have effectively killed the manual transmission car. What else might disappear from the marketplace if retirees change their consumption requirements?

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post #809 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 10:51 AM
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Imagine that... Driving enjoyment is subjective. Seems like manufacturers would want to offer lots of options to satisfy a variety of customers.

Day 883 of me not buying a Giulia because it lacks a manual option.
DanB, FCA does "offer lots of options to satisfy a variety of customers," just not a manual transmission. An Owners Club buddy drove my 2018 Giulia Ti Sport with Q2 on a mountain back-road from Albuquerque to Santa Fe and return. Afterwards, he decided to bite the bullet and buy the lease-return 2017 Giulia Ti Sport with both Q2 and Q4 on which he had his eye. His DD, a 2015 Chevrolet Camaro SS MT6, is now for sale ... the Giulia is that kind of goodness! My suggestion for you, DanB, is to take a short-term lease on a Giulia Ti Sport, or Lusso if you prefer, with the Q2 Performance Package and see for yourself that the vehicle is an Alfa Romeo through and through. No question about it.
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post #810 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 02:49 PM Thread Starter
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DanB, FCA does "offer lots of options to satisfy a variety of customers," just not a manual transmission. An Owners Club buddy drove my 2018 Giulia Ti Sport with Q2 on a mountain back-road from Albuquerque to Santa Fe and return. Afterwards, he decided to bite the bullet and buy the lease-return 2017 Giulia Ti Sport with both Q2 and Q4 on which he had his eye. His DD, a 2015 Chevrolet Camaro SS MT6, is now for sale ... the Giulia is that kind of goodness! My suggestion for you, DanB, is to take a short-term lease on a Giulia Ti Sport, or Lusso if you prefer, with the Q2 Performance Package and see for yourself that the vehicle is an Alfa Romeo through and through. No question about it.


You chaps just don’t get it! I’ve taken out a new Giulia and driven it sensibly in traffic and also thrashed it to an inch of it’s life in the back country. Sorry but without a manual the small minority of us just won’t heel to market constraints.

You purchase what you like and I’ll purchase what I like.

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Last edited by Sketchl; 04-19-2019 at 03:58 PM.
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