Want manual giulia.... - Page 53 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 249Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #781 of 883 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 06:25 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,706
The very pretty Alfa GT was the last model to use the Busso V6, in 24 valve 3.2 litre form. Succeeded by a somewhat pedestrian GM worldwide C6 of the same displacement but generally inferior as an enthusiast's engine. The ZF 6 spd automatic was introduced in 2000. Before that the automatic transmission was notably inferior for enthusiast drivers.

Therefore, the last great manual transmission Alfa was the 2010 GT built with a then five year old "brand new engine" and manual gearbox. But it was only FWD.....

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new
Michael Smith is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #782 of 883 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 06:34 AM
Registered User
 
nealric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,015
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by oz3litre View Post
So, what happens if you drive one for 400 km at a stretch like many of us do in Australia? Does the overheating only happen if you drive flat out?
Yes, but don't worry about that because flat out a Tesla runs out of power long before you travel 400 km.
Another falsehood. The Tesla 3 is available with up to 513km of range. No, it’s not an ideal road trip car, but I’m usually going to fly for trips longer than 500km.

1986 Spider Veloce Turbo
nealric is offline  
post #783 of 883 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 07:04 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by nealric View Post
Another falsehood. The Tesla 3 is available with up to 513km of range. No, it’s not an ideal road trip car, but I’m usually going to fly for trips longer than 500km.
A bit of mix up here:

OZ the car runs 530 km on a charge so 400km is no problem.

nealric: We dont really know how far the car would go flat out, but certainly not 530 km or even 400 km. Either the batteries would run empty or overheat before that. Somebody has to try that on an oval track and see. That said possibly most fossile fuel cars would have problems running flat out a whole tank. So what is the argument?
Gabor K. is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #784 of 883 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 09:11 AM
Del
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: seattle
Posts: 15,357
Now, lol, we have wandered off the primary topic. Well, on to other things I guess, since we are "stuck" with the old manual shifting Alfas we own, alas, heh, heh.

BTW, have seen a Model 3 up close, and I'm old fashioned enough, that having nothing in front of me in the dash, except for that tv screen over in the center/middle, sort of like an old Mini, bugs me no end. Not for me.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
Del is online now  
post #785 of 883 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 09:17 AM
Registered User
 
nealric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,015
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabor K. View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nealric View Post
Another falsehood. The Tesla 3 is available with up to 513km of range. No, it’s not an ideal road trip car, but I’m usually going to fly for trips longer than 500km.
A bit of mix up here:

OZ the car runs 530 km on a charge so 400km is no problem.

nealric: We dont really know how far the car would go flat out, but certainly not 530 km or even 400 km. Either the batteries would run empty or overheat before that. Somebody has to try that on an oval track and see. That said possibly most fossile fuel cars would have problems running flat out a whole tank. So what is the argument?
I wasn’t suggesting it would do 400km flat out! Just that a normal 400km drive would be no problem.

1986 Spider Veloce Turbo
nealric is offline  
post #786 of 883 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 12:07 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,706
Quote:
Originally Posted by nealric View Post
I wasn’t suggesting it would do 400km flat out! Just that a normal 400km drive would be no problem.
That may be but the question was about range when operating flat out. Which I answered. And we do know a Tesla cannot run to anything like its maximum range when travelling flat out.

It is true that neither can a fossil fuelled car but the range penalty driving flat out in a gasoline powered car is nowhere near the range penalty in an electric car.

And gasoline powered cars can easily empty their tank while being driven flat out, and repeatedly. Many car makers have demonstrated these endurance runs. SAAB did so in the first generation 9000 turbo at Talladega decades ago (1988) . 100,000 km continuous running except for refuelling stops. 32 days of continuous high speed driving (at over 220 km/ hr in US full emission controlled trim, a top speed capability I can personally vouch for, btw) Piece of cake.*

Tesla type EV with no transmission are also seriously speed limited for flat out driving due to the nature of electric motors. All electric motors are also generators. There is an rpm limit for any electric motor when the internal voltage generated by the rotation of the motor acts against the voltage applied by the power source. At that point rpm ceases to rise limiting top speed unless there's a second gear ratio available. It is extremely doubtful that a tesla could run flat out for an entire charge due yo heat dussioatiin problems. Bottom line? If you want to drive very fast over long distances don't buy an EV.

* and yes they were all 5 spd manuals, the automatic version was a tad slower. SAAB did it again in 1996 after Mercedes and VW tried an upstage at Nardo in Italy in the intervening period. Mercedes used their high performance 190 2.3 16 valvers.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new

Last edited by Michael Smith; 04-16-2019 at 12:29 PM.
Michael Smith is offline  
post #787 of 883 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 12:24 PM
Registered User
 
nealric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,015
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nealric View Post
I wasn’t suggesting it would do 400km flat out! Just that a normal 400km drive would be no problem.
That may be but the question was about range when operating flat out. Which I answered. And we do know a Tesla cannot run to anything like its maximum range when travelling flat out.

It is true that neither can a fossil fuelled car but the range penalty driving flat out in a gasoline powered car is nowhere near the range penalty in an electric car.

And gasoline powered cars can easily empty their tank while being driven flat out, and repeatedly. Many car makers have demonstrated these endurance runs. SAAB did so in the first generation 9000 turbo at Talladega decades ago. 100,000 km continuous running except for refuelling stops. 32 days of continuous high speed driving (at over 220 km/ hr in US full emission controlled trim, a top speed capability I can personally vouch for, btw) Piece of cake.*

Tesla type EV with no transmission are also seriously speed limited for flat out driving due to the nature of electric motors. All electric motors are also generators. There is an rpm limit for any electric motor when the internal voltage generated by the rotation of the motor acts against the voltage applied by the power source. At that point rpm ceases to rise limiting top speed unless there's a second gear ratio available. It is extremely doubtful that a tesla could run flat out for an entire charge due yo heat dussioatiin problems. Bottom line? If you want to drive very fast over long distances don't buy an EV.

* and yes they were all 5 spd manuals, the automatic version was a tad slower.
I was responding to a different poster who seemed concerned that a Tesla would overheat driving 400km. Anyhow, the Tesla 3 performance has a top speed of 162mph- quite a bit faster than that Saab 9000 driven flat out I suspect. Top speed isn’t an issue unless you are headed to Bonneville or driving an oval circuit- it won’t limit you on any road course I know of.

1986 Spider Veloce Turbo
nealric is offline  
post #788 of 883 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 12:31 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,706
Quote:
Originally Posted by nealric View Post
I was responding to a different poster who seemed concerned that a Tesla would overheat driving 400km. Anyhow, the Tesla 3 performance has a top speed of 162mph- quite a bit faster than that Saab 9000 driven flat out I suspect. Top speed isn’t an issue unless you are headed to Bonneville or driving an oval circuit- it won’t limit you on any road course I know of.
Not yet it won't. And my 1997 SAAB 9000 Aero would beat the Tesla 3 and that's 20 years ago.

You cannot drive a Tesla at top speed for very long, fortunately.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new
Michael Smith is offline  
post #789 of 883 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 01:35 PM
Registered User
 
nealric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,015
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
Not yet it won't. And my 1997 SAAB 9000 Aero would beat the Tesla 3 and that's 20 years ago.

You cannot drive a Tesla at top speed for very long, fortunately.
The Saab 9000 Aero was only good for 149, so it wouldn't beat a Tesla 3 performance. It also only had around 225hp- around half the Tesla (and a much narrower powerband). But top speed is a rather silly metric of performance these days. Fastest I've ever been on a track is around 145, and that was in a car with well over 400hp.
nealric is offline  
post #790 of 883 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 02:49 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
* and yes they were all 5 spd manuals, the automatic version was a tad slower. SAAB did it again in 1996 after Mercedes and VW tried an upstage at Nardo in Italy in the intervening period. Mercedes used their high performance 190 2.3 16 valvers.
Factory arranged tests and real life could be two different thing!

In Germany I heard there was a special place coming from Kiel in the North driving to the South. It was named meeting place for Swedes, and why. Because their cars broke down that place after driving hard on the Autobahn. After 1 hour of hard driving they had to be rescued by ADAC because of breakdown. My personal rule was also that if the car could make 1 hour hard driving on the Autobahn without problems it would last the whole trip of 4-5000km! My Alfas never let me down, but the swedes were reported to have lot of problems(petrol cars).
Gabor K. is offline  
post #791 of 883 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 03:44 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,706
Quote:
Originally Posted by nealric View Post
The Saab 9000 Aero was only good for 149, so it wouldn't beat a Tesla 3 performance. It also only had around 225hp- around half the Tesla (and a much narrower powerband). But top speed is a rather silly metric of performance these days. Fastest I've ever been on a track is around 145, and that was in a car with well over 400hp.
1997 SAAB 9000 Aero 5 spd was good for 155 mph (250 km/hr). According to the factory. In reality they were generally faster than the official figures, especially with an old well run in engine and platinum or iridium plugs. Mine would routinely overboost to fuel cut off in second gear due to the knock suppression character of iridium tipped plugs.

But the real drawback to EV at the moment is the staggering cost and weight of the battery pack. $15,000.00 to load the chassis with tonne of deadweight.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new
Michael Smith is offline  
post #792 of 883 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 07:38 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,805
[QUOTE=Michael Smith;8401176]
And gasoline powered cars can easily empty their tank while being driven flat out, and repeatedly. Many car makers have demonstrated these endurance runs. SAAB did so in the first generation 9000 turbo at Talladega decades ago (1988) . 100,000 km continuous running except for refuelling stops. 32 days of continuous high speed driving (at over 220 km/ hr in US full emission controlled trim, a top speed capability I can personally vouch for, btw) Piece of cake.*

QUOTE]

History is not quite like you remember, because after 15 days of running all 3 cars had to change cylinder heads because of burned exhaust valves! Allways problems when doing such stunts!

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/articl...-9000-and-900/

You should also know that the Saab 900 turbo was in the eighties a direct competitor of the Alfa GTV6 2,5. Alfa GTV6 beat the turbo and after that it was marketed in the SAABs homeland Sweden as the Turbo Dödaren(Turbo killer)

With regards to price of the lithium battery pack in a car, well we know its expensive, but its included in the price of a car. The battery has 5-8 years guarantee if something happens. Degrading to 75-80% capacity is very slow, like 8 years or so. Also the battery pack is segmented so degraded segments can be replaced without changing the whole pack. Generally car manufacturers expect the batteries to survive their cars, to be reused as stationary battery supply.

Also the car industry is waiting for a new solid state battery of which production is started in China and soon in Japan and US. Efficiency of these batteries is twice the lithium batteries, so battery weight will decrease and also they are talking of 1 minute charging time! We will see! Cars with these batteries are expected a few years from now.
Gabor K. is offline  
post #793 of 883 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 02:06 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,706
The problem was Talladega, not the engines. The cars ran so fast on the banked track that the fuel in the tank was obstructed from reaching the fuel pump by the unforeseen vertical g forces. Once this phenomenon was identified the engines suffered no further problem. The later test in 1996 did not experience this problem because precautions were taken to prevent it.

Just by the way, the Tesla's acceleration ability is an accident. (Apart from it also being an accident waiting to happen since the chassis isn't really safe to handle the performance). To get the range Tesla has to fit big heavy batteries to the car. To get decent performance the motor(s) then have to be very big. You can't build a small, light EV that also accelerates like a Tesla. You also cannot easily build a slower Tesla of the size needed to go that far.

EV are a dead end technology without a future just as they were when they first tried to compete with gasoline. Without light vehicles powered by ICE there is no other use for all that gasoline coming out of every barrel of oil we refine to get the other stuff we use.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new
Michael Smith is offline  
post #794 of 883 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 02:28 PM
Registered User
 
nealric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,015
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post

Just by the way, the Tesla's acceleration ability is an accident. (Apart from it also being an accident waiting to happen since the chassis isn't really safe to handle the performance). To get the range Tesla has to fit big heavy batteries to the car. To get decent performance the motor(s) then have to be very big. You can't build a small, light EV that also accelerates like a Tesla. You also cannot easily build a slower Tesla of the size needed to go that far.

EV are a dead end technology without a future just as they were when they first tried to compete with gasoline. Without light vehicles powered by ICE there is no other use for all that gasoline coming out of every barrel of oil we refine to get the other stuff we use.
Wrong again. The Bolt EV is considerably slower than a base model Tesla Model 3 (~1.5 seconds slower to 60) but has more range. The performance comes from Teslas being fit with more powerful motors and optimizing the software controlling the battery and motor for acceleration. They made a very deliberate choice to make the Model S and Model 3 quick, although the EV technology meant they could do so without as much work as it would have taken for an internal combustion powered car. Like gasoline motors, electric motors come in all sorts of power outputs. The size of the battery pack just controls how long it can put out its power. Thus, you could build a very/small light EV that accelerates quite quickly. For example, this Volkswagen Beetle was turned into an EV that can do 9 second quarter miles:

https://www2.greencarreports.com/new...under-the-hood


Your point on safety is rather silly. Short of having a full roll cage (which no production car does) any car that can pull 10 second quarter miles could be considered "unsafe" to handle the performance per the NHRA rules. Nothing to do with Tesla itself really. I will say that the Tesla chassis is very planted even during maximum acceleration. While it hits you hard, it's a lot less dramatic than in similarly quick internal combustion engine powered cars- there's almost no tire squeal and no fishtailing or looseness whatsoever. It's probably a lot safer than a Dodge Hellcat pulling the same acceleration (and no heavier, I might add).

Your point about gasoline (or similar products) as a necesary byproduct of refining is one reason why I don't foresee internal combustion vehicles becoming permanently extinct. However, refining processes can be optimized to get as much of one specific product or another. None of that means EVs are "dead end."

1986 Spider Veloce Turbo
nealric is offline  
post #795 of 883 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 04:16 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,805
Despite intense claims that Electric cars will flop, these cars sell more and more, and the Tesla Model 3 is a real hit!

https://thedriven.io/2019/04/15/tesl...ric-car-in-us/

However electric cars have not been developed over 100 years, but only quite recently, so the technical envelope has to be developed. As I mentioned earlier the battery could overheat in track conditions, something that has to be handled by better cooling etc. However race conditions are really not relevant for people who buy a car for everyday use!

Here an expert trying a race prepared Tesla on track in hot condition. Alas short trip.

Gabor K. is offline  
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome