Want manual giulia.... - Page 52 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #766 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ARwrench View Post
I have a stupid question...(I have seen a bunch of Teslas the last few day) since gas and diesel have a road tax (you know..upkeep,repairs and repaving costs) How do EV's pay their share for using the roads?
They don't.

Fossil fuels are very, very cheap if not taxed.

A big part of the hidden subsidies paid to EV drivers includes zero fuel tax.
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post #767 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 05:39 AM
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Your assertions are simply false. Battery costs continue to fall.

https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicle...materials-cost

Plus, there are numerous different chemistry variations that show promise for further densification and cost reduction. Power generation is likewise not a significant problem- it will ramp up with overall demand growth. We won’t all switch to EVs over night- it will take decades. The fact that the current fleet is mostly fossil fuel based is irrelevant to the future prospects for EVs.
Correction: battery costs are projected to fall. That's not what is actually happening.

It has been estimated that the UK, just for example, with a population around 60 m which drives much less than the average person in North America, population nearly 600 million, will need 10 new giant nuclear power plants just to electrify the vehicle fleet. So, no, electric power generation will not "ramp up" to meet the required demand. And in addition to there being no factual basis to claim that battery manufacturing costs will decline there is no factual basis for claiming electrical power generation will increase. Meanwhile consumption of fossil fuels continues to rise, especially PNG.

Manual transmissions are becoming quite rare in part because of the same sort of thinking. That humans are good at predicting the future. The reality is we are pretty much hopeless at predicting our own future.
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post #768 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 05:55 AM
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Correction: battery costs are projected to fall. That's not what is actually happening.

It has been estimated that the UK, just for example, with a population around 60 m which drives much less than the average person in North America, population nearly 600 million, will need 10 new giant nuclear power plants just to electrify the vehicle fleet. So, no, electric power generation will not "ramp up" to meet the required demand. And in addition to there being no factual basis to claim that battery manufacturing costs will decline there is no factual basis for claiming electrical power generation will increase. Meanwhile consumption of fossil fuels continues to rise, especially PNG.

Manual transmissions are becoming quite rare in part because of the same sort of thinking. That humans are good at predicting the future. The reality is we are pretty much hopeless at predicting our own future.
Have to love the passive voice "it has been estimated." By whom, based on what assumptions? Indeed, nobody can predict the future with any certainty.
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post #769 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 11:48 AM
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"roughly twice the population of North America"

Wasn't talking about population but the area of one country against EACH of the others (with their varied rules, regulations, and degrees of political control), and large distances involved with traveling by private vehicle in many areas of the US, to say nothing about the relative degrees of perceived personal freedoms in each in such a varied but single country as the US. Not nearly as city oriented as most European countries.

While I am of Norwegian descent and love the country and the people we know, when we visited several times, we felt slightly oppressed by the indications of stronger authoritarianism we felt. Fairly typical European in that respect we thought. So far, we certainly feel more free in our choices of automobiles, gas, diesel, or electric powered.

The future, don't know what will happen, but as of now, I don't see gas or diesel powered vehicles going away in the next few decades at least.

However, that is almost not the point, as right now I just want a manual shifting Alfa. That's all, no matter how popular (or not) electric cars (sans multiple gear transmissions of any kind) become for the masses, not just those with tons of money.
Thanks for the clarification of your statement. I have seen in an almanac comparison of US states vs European states, by area. So then US with all its states is smaller than Europe with all its states. So big areas and distances here also. We have double the population so denser population. But we dont have your deserts with little population.

I am not trying to push electric cars down anybodys throat, but telling what change is going on in the world even if not all the world is up to this. So most of the 2019 Geneva car Exhibition was about electric and hybrid cars. Indicating which way the market goes, and the end of fossile fuel cars will come soon it seems, and sooner than many think! Sooner than I thought and even want!
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post #770 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 12:37 PM
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Have to love the passive voice "it has been estimated." By whom, based on what assumptions? Indeed, nobody can predict the future with any certainty.
By several people including me, just google it. Back of the envelope stuff. Using total gasoline or diesel energy content adjusted for thermal inefficiency of ICE and converting that to KWh, then MegaWatt hours then divide that by a typical nuclear power plant in the UK such as the yet to be completed Hinckley station being built by the Chinese for the UK. I easily get 10 such power stations very conservatively even without adjusting upwards for generation, transmission, battery charging and discharging losses.

Norway has excess hydro power or you'd have noticed this effect already given the Norwegisn government's strange obsession with EV as a means to reduce CO2 emissions. Even your government is having serious second thoughts about your crazy subsidization scheme.
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post #771 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 01:10 PM
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Some of the urge to have an Electric car is virtue signaling.
Throughout the history of technological advance, the adjudication has been simple.
Is it economic?
And every advance has been based upon this and the adjudication has been the market without favouritism by the state.
A pack horse could carry about 250 lbs over a rough road.
With an improved road a horse with a wagon could "carry" say 2000 lbs.
Then privately run toll roads, in England as the lead, were funded and built. If the wagon had nine-inch tires two horses could pull a lot more.
The Conestoga Wagon, (US) pulled by teams of oxen could carry up to 12000 lbs.
The ultimate in freight-carrying by wagon and teams.
Always more efficient.
Then came the canals whereby one horse could pull 30 tons.
Problems with drought in summer and ice in winter shut things down.
Then came the railways, which could operate in any season.
Serious power was provided by wind and water, that were replaced by steam.
Each change essentially defied tradition and was done best with minimal state favouritism or subsidy.
Electric cars---sure--but no special tax breaks.
Let economics adjudicate.

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Last edited by Subtle; 04-15-2019 at 01:20 PM. Reason: Checked my numbers
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post #772 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Subtle View Post
Some of the urge to have an Electric car is virtue signaling.
Throughout the history of technological advance, the adjudication has been simple.
Is it economic?
And every advance has been based upon this and the adjudication has been the market without favouritism by the state.
A pack horse could carry about 250 lbs over a rough road.
With an improved road a horse with a wagon could "carry" say 2000 lbs.
Then privately run toll roads, in England as the lead, were funded and built. If the wagon had nine-inch tires two horses could pull a lot more.
The Conestoga Wagon, (US) pulled by teams of oxen could carry up to 12000 lbs.
The ultimate in freight-carrying by wagon and teams.
Always more efficient.
Then came the canals whereby one horse could pull 30 tons.
Problems with drought in summer and ice in winter shut things down.
Then came the railways, which could operate in any season.
Serious power was provided by wind and water, that were replaced by steam.
Each change essentially defied tradition and was done best with minimal state favouritism or subsidy.
Electric cars---sure--but no special tax breaks.
Let economics adjudicate.
They will. Part of the reason why Tesla has been the stand-out in the EV space is because they realized that EVs could be turned into something people desire for their own sake. To wit, EVs prior to Tesla were eco vehicles designed mostly with environmental activists in mind. They put leaves on the badges and had "eco monitors" on the dashboard. But Tesla realized that very few people buy cars to show off how green they are. People buy cars first to get form Point A to Point B, and if they have some extra money they buy luxury or performance. What Tesla provides is a phenomenal amount of both luxury and performance. A nearly silent car that can do 0-60 in the 2 second range is something a lot of people will pay money for. Sure, they have disadvantages and don't fit all use cases well, but they do offer some pretty impressive advantages that have absolutely nothing to do with the environment.
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post #773 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 01:41 PM
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By several people including me, just google it. Back of the envelope stuff. Using total gasoline or diesel energy content adjusted for thermal inefficiency of ICE and converting that to KWh, then MegaWatt hours then divide that by a typical nuclear power plant in the UK such as the yet to be completed Hinckley station being built by the Chinese for the UK. I easily get 10 such power stations very conservatively even without adjusting upwards for generation, transmission, battery charging and discharging losses.

Norway has excess hydro power or you'd have noticed this effect already given the Norwegisn government's strange obsession with EV as a means to reduce CO2 emissions. Even your government is having serious second thoughts about your crazy subsidization scheme.
It's not my job to support your argument for you. Provide your own links. But your methodology is clearly flawed if you are simply taking fuel consumption and converting to KWH. I am not saying that we are all going to stop using all gasoline and diesel vehicles anytime soon. The transition will take decades- and even after it is mostly complete there will remain special use cases where internal combustion is the best choice. There will be plenty of time for additional power plants to be built- many will even be fossil fuel powered (especially natural gas), but rooftop solar will become increasingly helpful for EV owners - especially in the American south.

And, as my post above indicated, none of this has anything to do with global warming or environmental friendliness. People will want EVs because they are better to drive. And, if we are to use your logic, you are therefore wrong for wanting anything else

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post #774 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 02:29 PM
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Wait... wasn't this a TRANSMISSION discussion? It seems to have wandered off topic. Perhaps a new thread is needed?


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post #775 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 05:14 PM
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Well, these subjects are related, in that some are predicting the future about electric cars taking over eventually, and their transmissions not having multiple gears, something some of us still like, esp the manual versions. And, it is likely that vehicle transmissions as we know them, either manual or automatic, are on the way out, as electric motors are becoming attached directly to the wheels, period. More despair for those of us who like manuals.

I would like a new manual equipped Alfa sedan before all this becomes moot, or I die. I think those of us who started driving in the 50's have lived in the best of times for just plain simple automobile fun.

Del

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previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #776 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 06:06 PM
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I had loads of fun with 50s, 60s and 70s cars over the years, but I love our 2000s Alfas. I could never afford an Alfa back when I was young, but I’ve made up for it since. My GT is an awesome car, with incredible handling and one of the most sublime engines ever made. It is better than a Ferrari in many ways. Our 2011 159 ti 1750 TBI is one of the most beautiful cars ever made and a joy to drive. They are much more comfortable than my old cars were and are extremely reliable and a lot safer. Both happen to be manuals. The old ones have their own character of course, but are more of an enthusiast weekend vehicle than a daily driver these days. My 1988 Range Rover has enough modern conveniences, like air conditioning, (once I get it working that is), and efi, to make it a comfortable car to drive long distances and in the city. Having the ZF HP4 four speed auto makes a big 4WD like that more relaxing to drive, as well as more effective off road. The ZF is a good old school auto, as we know from experience with the 164 autos. It is smooth, responsive, reliable and easy to service, which is an advantage in a car that is likely to go to remote places in future.

Current Alfas
2010 159 ti 1750 TBI sedan (red).
2004 GT 3.2 V6 (Stromboli Grey).
2008 159 TI Sportwagon 2.4 JTDM (Stromboli Grey).
1987 75 3 litre (red). My first 75 and now my son's.
2000 156 2 litre Twin Spark, ( Cosmos Blu metallic), my daughter's car.
2000 156 Monza Twin Spark, (Cosmos Blue metallic), son’s girlfiend’s car.
1999 GTV 3 litre 24 valve V6, metallic black, (son’s new car).

Non Alfa
1988 Range Rover Classic Highline 3.9 V8

Past Alfas
1989 75 3 litre, written off by runaway van.
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (black), now sold & living in Newcastle NSW.
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (grey, sadly deceased due to fire).
1982 GTV 2 litre, red, (daughter's first Alfa)
2 x 1992 164s, (1 red, 1 grey).
2 x 1988 33s, (both red).
1985 GTV 2 litre, (white).
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post #777 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 02:31 AM
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I think all aspects of manual and Automatic has been covered here in the 52 pages of comments. Also mostly there is agreement that manual gives the most satisfaction and feeling of driving the car, while the Automatic is best for city driving and laps records on Nürburgring or elsewhere.

However Alfa has announced that their future is electric and hybrid like for the other competitors, so therefore it was time to take that into consideration also: that both manual and Automatic will fade out of the market. Some places fast, some places slowly, but it will happen.

What I found missing here is which manufaturer still offers significant cars still to be bought, as Alfa missed out on the world maket with the manual. I could only find Porshe as offerer of manual, but a survey I found shows more, but not cars I would buy.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/car...-transmission/

About experience with Electric cars: I just had the opportunity to look at the Tesla Model 3, which is a very nice mid size sedan. It seems to be very modern but the Logic about its practical use seems to have been created by computer engineers. No dashboard intruments, just a center display pad that shows you every function. No keys, just your smart phone communicating with the car etc, etc. Really another world. Otherwise the car was nice and practical enough. I am sure Alfas hybrid and Electric cars will keep the feeling of sitting and driving a car.

Also a couple of Tesla Model 3 s were observed on trackday here. It has 4 wheel drive and about 430Hp, so should be fun to drive on the track. Alas after some impressive startings, they were not so impressive any more. After 3 laps the batteries were overheating and had to take a pause to cool down. So driving these did not give the owners the feeling of the old days!
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post #778 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 04:24 AM
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So, what happens if you drive one for 400 km at a stretch like many of us do in Australia? Does the overheating only happen if you drive flat out?

Current Alfas
2010 159 ti 1750 TBI sedan (red).
2004 GT 3.2 V6 (Stromboli Grey).
2008 159 TI Sportwagon 2.4 JTDM (Stromboli Grey).
1987 75 3 litre (red). My first 75 and now my son's.
2000 156 2 litre Twin Spark, ( Cosmos Blu metallic), my daughter's car.
2000 156 Monza Twin Spark, (Cosmos Blue metallic), son’s girlfiend’s car.
1999 GTV 3 litre 24 valve V6, metallic black, (son’s new car).

Non Alfa
1988 Range Rover Classic Highline 3.9 V8

Past Alfas
1989 75 3 litre, written off by runaway van.
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (black), now sold & living in Newcastle NSW.
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (grey, sadly deceased due to fire).
1982 GTV 2 litre, red, (daughter's first Alfa)
2 x 1992 164s, (1 red, 1 grey).
2 x 1988 33s, (both red).
1985 GTV 2 litre, (white).
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post #779 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 04:28 AM
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So, what happens if you drive one for 400 km at a stretch like many of us do in Australia? Does the overheating only happen if you drive flat out?
If they were overheating on the track, they must not have had models equipped with track mode or it was not activated. Model S was a different story. A Model 3 performance can drive on the track without overheating. The bigger problem is battery life - you won’t finish the traditional 4 20 minute session track day.

There are no overheating problems on the street. It’s not really possible to overheat a Tesla on the street and retain your license. Also keep in mind that many (probably the vast majority) of street cars won’t handle track duty without problems - especially if you are hammering hard.

In general, EVs are too new to the market to have many niche enthusiast cars offered- although there are a few electric supercars on the near horizon.

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post #780 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by oz3litre View Post
So, what happens if you drive one for 400 km at a stretch like many of us do in Australia? Does the overheating only happen if you drive flat out?
Of 38 Model 3 cars here offered for sale I could only see two versions, Long Range 530Km range WLTP and Performance Version. Both have the most batteries offered. Suppose Performance Version would be tested on track?

What version was observed on track on sunday is hard to say, only that they had to cool their batteries after a short stint on track. Observed by another driver with similar power 4WD, petrol turbo and manual shift.

I am sure the car will function very well in normal drive conditions, this was only a track day observation.
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