Want manual giulia.... - Page 51 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #751 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 03:56 PM
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You don’t think GM wouldn’t have made a car like the Model S if they could have? It was experimental because they were developing new tech.

Tesla hasn’t even come close to maxing out weight and range improvements. And who cares if a diesel Mercedes can go 1,000 on a tank? I need a break after driving 4-5 hours, and EV quick charging will soon allow charges in as quick as I can do a bathroom break. Plus, having driven a deisel E class and a Model S, I can tel you the Mode S is so much better to drive it isn’t even funny.
Any of the major car makers can easily make an EV to compete successfully with Tesla. They already are. No car maker in the world can make a profit selling EV without price support from government.

Period.
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post #752 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 04:01 PM
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I would suggest that they are boring unless driven near their limits. Otherwise... my experience anyway, lol.

Even my successful racer relative with the 750 hp Corvette and the Chevy SS says that he doesn't bother anymore with the flappy paddles, just using the console stick in "D", as the paddles just don't add anything, in his opinion, and he can't race on the street anyway. He would prefer to have manuals in the cars to be more involved with the driving.

They asked us if we were interested in a new Giulia, since they have known us as owning nothing but Alfas, and we told him maybe if it came with the manual, but otherwise, no. No sale.
It is true that paddle shifting a modern automatic rarely produces improved performance, the software is that good. Whether not having to shift produces a boring drive rather depends on the driver....
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post #753 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by nealric View Post
You don’t think GM wouldn’t have made a car like the Model S if they could have? It was experimental because they were developing new tech.

Tesla hasn’t even come close to maxing out weight and range improvements. And who cares if a diesel Mercedes can go 1,000 on a tank? I need a break after driving 4-5 hours, and EV quick charging will soon allow charges in as quick as I can do a bathroom break. Plus, having driven a deisel E class and a Model S, I can tel you the Mode S is so much better to drive it isn’t even funny.
Any of the major car makers can easily make an EV to compete successfully with Tesla. They already are. No car maker in the world can make a profit selling EV without price support from government.

Period.
Again, the tax credits are phasing out for Tesla this year. We shall soon see, but I think you will be quickly proven wrong. Battery costs have been steadily falling - even mainline makers like VW and BMW have said as much. And Tesla isn’t even a wel run company- they are a basket case from a management standpoint. You are stuck in the past on EV tech just as you claim manual enthusiasts are.

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post #754 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 04:57 PM
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Once the dust settles on the EV revolution, owning and driving a gasoline or diesel vehicle will be a luxury. Only die hard fans will keep them on the road, and manual transmission cars will be the most sought after. You can actually see it happening today with vintage American muscle cars. The fours on the floor are always worth more.
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post #755 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 08:27 PM
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Again, the tax credits are phasing out for Tesla this year. We shall soon see, but I think you will be quickly proven wrong. Battery costs have been steadily falling - even mainline makers like VW and BMW have said as much. And Tesla isn’t even a wel run company- they are a basket case from a management standpoint. You are stuck in the past on EV tech just as you claim manual enthusiasts are.
Technically battery production costs have already fallen as far as they're going to and EV are still too expensive to sell in the open market. There are those who claim battery costs will continue to decline but there is no evidence for this nor any science to support the supposition.

The currently insurmountable problem is generating enough electricity to charge the required fleet of EV. Basically you need 100 times more electrical generating capacity than we now have if EV are to become common.

Worldwide EV vehicle fleet is currently about 1% of total fleet.
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post #756 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 08:31 PM
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Once the dust settles on the EV revolution, owning and driving a gasoline or diesel vehicle will be a luxury. Only die hard fans will keep them on the road, and manual transmission cars will be the most sought after. You can actually see it happening today with vintage American muscle cars. The fours on the floor are always worth more.
Prices for any antiques are driven by very low supply at the time of original manufacture as compared to today. Demand is not very high. The low supply resulted from the low population at the time the antiques were new. This trend has already terminated. This phenomenon was always driven by demographics reacting to nostalgia. Dead people don't buy anything, new or old.
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post #757 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 11:32 AM
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Once the dust settles on the EV revolution, owning and driving a gasoline or diesel vehicle will be a luxury. Only die hard fans will keep them on the road, and manual transmission cars will be the most sought after. You can actually see it happening today with vintage American muscle cars. The fours on the floor are always worth more.
On the contrary, the diesel and petrol cars will over time not be possible to sell because nobody will want them any more!

Already now there is a trend that petrol and Diesel cars are hard to sell in the cities and have to be sold in the countryside. As time goes by fossile cars will not be allowed into the cities, just Electric and hybrid, happened already in Paris, here the toll for fossile is getting so expensive that you really dont want to drive to center city any more. As this goes on for more years and new fossile cars cant be bought any more its only time before the fossile cars are history in the industrialized countries.

Only the most interesting fossile sportscars will survive to drive like historic cars. If their pollution is tolerated. The Paris agreement drives all the countries down the same path of reducing CO2 and Nox emissions, so unless the factories cannot remove these emissions by technology, they have to go and emission less cars take over. The US will also conform after the present president.
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post #758 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 12:44 PM
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"On the contrary, the diesel and petrol cars will over time not be possible to sell because nobody will want them any more!"

Don't think so. The US is a much bigger country than any of the European, with a much more varied population, living styles, and expectations for personal freedoms. The desires and needs for the two types of propulsion are vastly different.

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previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #759 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 01:30 PM
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Again, the tax credits are phasing out for Tesla this year. We shall soon see, but I think you will be quickly proven wrong. Battery costs have been steadily falling - even mainline makers like VW and BMW have said as much. And Tesla isn’t even a wel run company- they are a basket case from a management standpoint. You are stuck in the past on EV tech just as you claim manual enthusiasts are.
Technically battery production costs have already fallen as far as they're going to and EV are still too expensive to sell in the open market. There are those who claim battery costs will continue to decline but there is no evidence for this nor any science to support the supposition.

The currently insurmountable problem is generating enough electricity to charge the required fleet of EV. Basically you need 100 times more electrical generating capacity than we now have if EV are to become common.

Worldwide EV vehicle fleet is currently about 1% of total fleet.
Your assertions are simply false. Battery costs continue to fall.

https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicle...materials-cost

Plus, there are numerous different chemistry variations that show promise for further densification and cost reduction. Power generation is likewise not a significant problem- it will ramp up with overall demand growth. We won’t all switch to EVs over night- it will take decades. The fact that the current fleet is mostly fossil fuel based is irrelevant to the future prospects for EVs.

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post #760 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 03:25 PM
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"On the contrary, the diesel and petrol cars will over time not be possible to sell because nobody will want them any more!"

Don't think so. The US is a much bigger country than any of the European, with a much more varied population, living styles, and expectations for personal freedoms. The desires and needs for the two types of propulsion are vastly different.


I am sure it will surprise you that Europe has roughly twice the population of North America, and I am sure that diversity in people and culture is just as big here as in America. Also some countries here will be much faster in the electrifying of cars than others. Each country agreed to do their share of the change according to ability.

Anyway China and US are the worst polluters in the world and its most important that change happens there. China is doing a big work by electrifying their cars. Hopefully US follows suit with your next president! Because what US does matters very much!
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post #761 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Del View Post
"On the contrary, the diesel and petrol cars will over time not be possible to sell because nobody will want them any more!"

Don't think so. The US is a much bigger country than any of the European, with a much more varied population, living styles, and expectations for personal freedoms. The desires and needs for the two types of propulsion are vastly different.
Europeans are so accustomed to government interference in the ordinary citizens lives they don't realize the effect of market forces any longer.

The current trouble car makers are having with diesel sales results directly from government hypocrisy driven by the greenie weenies that have significant political influence. In North America greenie weenies all live in California or the West coast of Canada, Vancouver and Vancouver Island. They have much less influence than European environmentals.

Diesels were at first promoted by government because they are more fuel efficient. They burn proportionally more carbon but they burn less in total. They do however emit more NOx and particulates which is currently stirring up the greenies in Europe. So diesels are now bad according to governments who previously declared them good. The car makers were blind sided. To top it off the diesels were made to look much better than they actually were by government mandated emissions tests which did not match reality. Car makers like VW were then castigated when their engines were programmed to meet the tests. Which they did.

EV in Norway is a particularly egregious example of market distortion. The Norwegian government so heavily subsidized the EV that Tesla in Norway became the second most popular market outside California. Norway paid tesla buyers even more than California did. Great donation by Norwegians to California's economy! Absurdly the reason Norwegians can afford spending this money in subsidizing California's luxury EV manufacturer is the oil revenues they earn selling oil to the world. Norwegians then sit back and extol their virtue because their EV are powered by hydro electricity. The hypocrisy of Norwegians in this particular area of greenie weenieness is staggering.
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post #762 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 06:33 PM
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I have a stupid question...(I have seen a bunch of Teslas the last few day) since gas and diesel have a road tax (you know..upkeep,repairs and repaving costs) How do EV's pay their share for using the roads?

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post #763 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 08:06 PM
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"roughly twice the population of North America"

Wasn't talking about population but the area of one country against EACH of the others (with their varied rules, regulations, and degrees of political control), and large distances involved with traveling by private vehicle in many areas of the US, to say nothing about the relative degrees of perceived personal freedoms in each in such a varied but single country as the US. Not nearly as city oriented as most European countries.

While I am of Norwegian descent and love the country and the people we know, when we visited several times, we felt slightly oppressed by the indications of stronger authoritarianism we felt. Fairly typical European in that respect we thought. So far, we certainly feel more free in our choices of automobiles, gas, diesel, or electric powered.

The future, don't know what will happen, but as of now, I don't see gas or diesel powered vehicles going away in the next few decades at least.

However, that is almost not the point, as right now I just want a manual shifting Alfa. That's all, no matter how popular (or not) electric cars (sans multiple gear transmissions of any kind) become for the masses, not just those with tons of money.

Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 04-14-2019 at 08:10 PM.
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post #764 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 08:18 PM
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I have a stupid question...(I have seen a bunch of Teslas the last few day) since gas and diesel have a road tax (you know..upkeep,repairs and repaving costs) How do EV's pay their share for using the roads?
Fuel taxes haven’t kept up with actual maintenance costs in some time- much is paid for by general funds. However, this will eventually be solved with either mileage tax or tax at registration time for EVs. Additionally, one could argue that EVs create fewer broader externalities than ICE vehicles, such as smog.

Either way, I plan on keeping my manual transmission gasoline powered Alfa.

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post #765 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 10:57 PM
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The US will also conform
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