Want manual giulia.... - Page 50 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 249Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #736 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 09:03 PM
Registered User
 
nealric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Houston
Posts: 930
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabor K. View Post
Seems California thinks and acts more like Europe. Same strategy here electric for local driving but petrol or Diesel for the long haul. Would also mention that most people who have expensive electric also have a couple of combustion engine cars, so they can pick the car that most suitable for a specific trip.

A Ferrari/ Lamborghini dealer here told they had sold out all their last years top models and when asked why people bought such polluting cars, well the answer was: all of them already had an electric car, so they wanted to have fun in their spare time, trackdays etc.
California is up to just under 4% per annum market penetration by BEV (battery electric vehicle). PHEV are not EV but fossil fuel powered battery carriers. California leads the USA in BEV registrations by about double the next State. This is with heavy monetary and regulatory subsidies skewing the market in favour of BEV and PHEV. Nationwide EV market penetration is under 1% of all new car registrations.

For clarity, even in California at current sales levels more than 96% of new car registrations are cars with a fossil fuel engine as its primary or only Powertrain. Elsewhere the proportion is 99%.

Completely crazy to think EV will ever be popular anywhere in North America. A solution in search of a problem to solve.

Marchionne was very clear that there was absolutely no market for EV worth pursuing anywhere. Hence FCA put its development money into the Giulia and similar fossil fuelled cars. Considered in that light the market for manual gearbox Giulias was more than double the market available for EV Alfas and FCA still rejected that market.

Says it all about the future of EV.
Wait... this is the guy who lambasts manual enthusiasts for being stuck in the past? Don’t think about where EVs are - think about where they are going. And where they are going is into cars that will set lap records and quick charge in 10 minutes flat with all the weight on the floor. Auto transmissions- any transmission other than direct drive EV will be a relic in 30 years.
Gabor K. likes this.

1986 Spider Veloce Turbo
nealric is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #737 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 10:26 PM
Registered User
 
Alfistaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 256
Alfa Romeo would be better served by taking their cues from what Porsche is doing than from what their dead CEO said
about EVs nearly a decade ago.
Gabor K. likes this.

Last edited by Alfistaa; 04-12-2019 at 10:29 PM.
Alfistaa is offline  
post #738 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 12:07 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 1,780
Garage
If Marichonne had directed this then the Tonale wouldn’t exist, and wouldn’t be going on sale next year (on the last day of Dec. no doubt, ha). I’m looking forward to it.

In the meantime I’m considering a TCT Gulietta QV (or derv.) or Stelvio (I’m not getting into the manual/auto debate, it’s silly) - I like hatches, not sedans, can’t stand red.

'66 1600 Duetto | '73 1600 GTJunior | '03 156 1.9JTD Sportwagon | '11 Giulietta QV (wow, revelation) | I really don't need this many Alfa's...
Craig_m67 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #739 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 02:46 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,743
Yes, Alfa is going hybrid and electric in the future also. It has been predicted that manufactureres who only make combustion engines will have to close.

Volkswagen which owns Audi and Porsche has announced that they will not develop combustion engine cars after 2026 and stop producing combustion cars by 2030. According to their forecast. The Japanese have also indicated they will go the same direction.

https://www.electrive.com/2018/12/04...nes-from-2026/

That Michael Smith who has preached how wonderful the Automatic is, does not realize that this already is a solution for the past is surprising!

As mentioned here later battery cars will have a charging time of 15 minutes and a range of 300mls or more, development is going on. When the solution is good enough for practicality the fossile cars will be banned by legislation, not by market decision.

Anyway, I am not at all against manual cars, as I they are my favourite also, so I am keeping a couple of them also. However Alfa is not going to produce any signifcant car with manual any more, rather going in direction of electric. No debate here will change that!
Gabor K. is offline  
post #740 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 04:04 AM
Registered User
 
sportiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Newcastle Australia
Posts: 468
I like three pedals!! but if Google has their way you won't be driving. no pedals just a seat and a panic handle

Glen 3.0 GTV6 2.0 156 JTS
EX 1.2 Alfasud. 1.8 and 2.0 Alfetta's 2.5 Alfa75
sportiva is online now  
post #741 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 06:05 AM
Suspended by Moderators
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by nealric View Post
Wait... this is the guy who lambasts manual enthusiasts for being stuck in the past? Don’t think about where EVs are - think about where they are going. And where they are going is into cars that will set lap records and quick charge in 10 minutes flat with all the weight on the floor. Auto transmissions- any transmission other than direct drive EV will be a relic in 30 years.
ROFL

Not lambasting anyone. Pointing out that refusing to buy the Giulia just because there is no manual transmission available makes no sense at all.

I have a solution though. Vote in congressmen who will provide a significant subsidy to car makers offering a manual transmission option. Based on market demand there is a stronger case for subsidizing the manual transmission than the EV.

EV technology has not significantly improved in several decades. (Energy density of gasoline is still about 100 times higher than EV batteries. The much touted Tesla carries around 1,000 lbs of batteries whether they are charged or not). EV development has completely stalled. Only government action keeps the technology in the market.

Last edited by Michael Smith; 04-13-2019 at 06:23 AM.
Michael Smith is offline  
post #742 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 06:30 AM
Suspended by Moderators
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by sportiva View Post
I like three pedals!! but if Google has their way you won't be driving. no pedals just a seat and a panic handle
No doubt Boeing is in secret talks with Google's automated car engineers, maybe even recruiting some as we speak.

Automated cars are impossible both now and in the foreseeable future. The software not only cannot currently be written there is nobody currently alive who has any idea how to develop such software. It's all just smoke and mirrors so far, like super efficient EV batteries, total nonsense.

The final demise of the manual gearbox on the other hand is clearly foreseeable. No currently made car with any potential for future classic status is being built with a manual transmission, apart from a couple of Porsche 911 versions which are so expensive new I doubt they could possibly appreciate over decadal time scales required to achieve classic status. By then there will be only a handful of buyers who would know how to drive one.

The battle now is between the DCT and the planetary gearbox. At the moment the planetary transmission has the edge and the gap is widening, not closing.
Michael Smith is offline  
post #743 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 06:31 AM
Registered User
 
nealric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Houston
Posts: 930
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nealric View Post
Wait... this is the guy who lambasts manual enthusiasts for being stuck in the past? Don’t think about where EVs are - think about where they are going. And where they are going is into cars that will set lap records and quick charge in 10 minutes flat with all the weight on the floor. Auto transmissions- any transmission other than direct drive EV will be a relic in 30 years.
ROFL

Not lambasting anyone. Pointing out that refusing to buy the Giulia just because there is no manual transmission available makes no sense at all.

I have a solution though. Vote in congressmen who will provide a significant subsidy to car makers offering a manual transmission option. Based on market demand there is a stronger case for subsidizing the manual transmission than the EV.

EV technology has not significantly improved in several decades. (Energy density of gasoline is still about 100 times higher than EV batteries. The much touted Tesla carries around 1,000 lbs of batteries whether they are charged or not). EV development has completely stalled. Only government action keeps the technology in the market.
EV technology has not improved in several decades? Look at the GM EV1, and look at a Tesla S p100D and tell me with a straight face that there has been no improvement. By the way, the Tesla 3 subsidy will be completely gone by this summer and those are outselling BMWs.

Energy density is important but it is far from the only criteria. Current density is fine if couples with reduced prices and quicker charging times. Teslas May haul 1,000lbs of batteries, but the model S does not weigh significantly more than a Mercedes E class or BMW 5 series. Batteries are heavy, but batteries mean no cooling system, no transmission, lightweight electric motors, and better weight distribution.

1986 Spider Veloce Turbo
nealric is online now  
post #744 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 06:40 AM
Suspended by Moderators
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,622
I'm pretty sure the E in the GM EV1 stood for experimental. It was never intended for production and didn't reach the market.

To your point, the Tesla car would be in the order of 500 lbs lighter if equipped only with an ICE Powertrain. The diesel version of the Mercedes you refer to has a range approximately double that of a Tesla. If there were demand that diesel Mercedes could be fitted with a fuel tank smaller than the Tesla battery pack, much lighter when fully "charged" and would extend the range into the 1000 mile plus capability. Tesla has now completely maxed out its range and weight improvements. There is no feasible technology on the horizon to change that. The ICE powered vehicle has basically open ended potential for weight reduction and range extension available right now with no improved technologies, just no demand from the market for such developments.

Absent government interference in the market the EV is doomed to failure as dead end technology. So is the manual shift gearbox. The market is always right, by definition.
Michael Smith is offline  
post #745 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 06:44 AM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
Alfissimo Int.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,481
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARwrench View Post
I think you can still drive a paddle-shifter Alfa and feel connected and have fun.


https://www.facebook.com/hillclimbmo...1982970312339/
I agree. Like I said before, you just need to learn a new skill and feeling.

Just remember our bodies have electrical currents running through them. Electricity is essential in order to control and coordinate neurons and skeletal muscles activities. So to say you cannot connect to a TBW or BBW or PADDLE shift car is wrong, you need to focus grasshopper!! Be one with the car. hahahaha
Michael Smith likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Jason Minos


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


New: +1 619-209-0715
e-mail:admin at alfissimo.com
San Diego, CA
1991 White Alfa Romeo 164S Recaro, Siena, Zender.-GONE
2010 Touareg TDI
2017 Giulia Ti Sport Q4, Trofeo, Leather package(red), 19X8, 19X9.
Alfissimo Int. is offline  
post #746 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 06:56 AM
Registered User
 
nealric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Houston
Posts: 930
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
I'm pretty sure the E in the GM EV1 stood for experimental. It was never intended for production and didn't reach the market.

To your point, the Tesla car would be in the order of 500 lbs lighter if equipped only with an ICE Powertrain. The diesel version of the Mercedes you refer to has a range approximately double that of a Tesla. If there were demand that diesel Mercedes could be fitted with a fuel tank smaller than the Tesla battery pack, much lighter when fully "charged" and would extend the range into the 1000 mile plus capability. Tesla has now completely maxed out its range and weight improvements. There is no feasible technology on the horizon to change that. The ICE powered vehicle has basically open ended potential for weight reduction and range extension available right now with no improved technologies, just no demand from the market for such developments.

Absent government interference in the market the EV is doomed to failure as dead end technology. So is the manual shift gearbox. The market is always right, by definition.
You don’t think GM wouldn’t have made a car like the Model S if they could have? It was experimental because they were developing new tech.

Tesla hasn’t even come close to maxing out weight and range improvements. And who cares if a diesel Mercedes can go 1,000 on a tank? I need a break after driving 4-5 hours, and EV quick charging will soon allow charges in as quick as I can do a bathroom break. Plus, having driven a deisel E class and a Model S, I can tel you the Mode S is so much better to drive it isn’t even funny.

1986 Spider Veloce Turbo
nealric is online now  
post #747 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 08:48 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,743
Alfa Romeo is turning hybrid and electric on their future lineup.

Starters is the Tonale which is a small SUV and will have an all electric version. Then future models will also have hybrid, like the new GTV. Alfa cannot stay in the market as markets will ban combustion engine cars, without making hybrid and electric cars. Its a decision of existence!

https://www.mangoletsi.com/news/an-e...or-alfa-romeo/

https://www.designboom.com/technolog...va-03-06-2019/

I have also followed what Peugeot is doing. actually the same thing with a new 508. Hybrid versions considered marketed in Australia, but found that that market was not ready yet. However in Europe there is full push on new hybrid models and a full electric 208 starting now.

So, believe it, fossile cars are on their way out! Manual or Automatic. It will take some time, depending on politicians and development of technology.
Gabor K. is offline  
post #748 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 09:12 AM
Del
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: seattle
Posts: 14,940
"times, they are a changing"

Yes, they are, but for my own situation, for the rest of my life at my age, I will be able to continue to drive my manual shift gas powered cars til I die. If I were to buy an electric car, it would be just a whim toy.

Maybe the little electric Fiat 500, they not costing very much at all used. Nephew has one, and they like it for going to the store.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
Del is offline  
post #749 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 09:23 AM
Registered User
 
nealric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Houston
Posts: 930
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabor K. View Post
Alfa Romeo is turning hybrid and electric on their future lineup.

Starters is the Tonale which is a small SUV and will have an all electric version. Then future models will also have hybrid, like the new GTV. Alfa cannot stay in the market as markets will ban combustion engine cars, without making hybrid and electric cars. Its a decision of existence!

https://www.mangoletsi.com/news/an-e...or-alfa-romeo/

https://www.designboom.com/technolog...va-03-06-2019/

I have also followed what Peugeot is doing. actually the same thing with a new 508. Hybrid versions considered marketed in Australia, but found that that market was not ready yet. However in Europe there is full push on new hybrid models and a full electric 208 starting now.

So, believe it, fossile cars are on their way out! Manual or Automatic. It will take some time, depending on politicians and development of technology.
Don’t forget that both Formula 1 and LMP1 cars use hybrid technology. The winner of the Pikes Peak hill climb was a full EV. The days of EVs and hybrids being only boring economy cars to drive to the store in are on their way out.

1986 Spider Veloce Turbo
nealric is online now  
post #750 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 09:56 AM
Del
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: seattle
Posts: 14,940
I would suggest that they are boring unless driven near their limits. Otherwise... my experience anyway, lol.

Even my successful racer relative with the 750 hp Corvette and the Chevy SS says that he doesn't bother anymore with the flappy paddles, just using the console stick in "D", as the paddles just don't add anything, in his opinion, and he can't race on the street anyway. He would prefer to have manuals in the cars to be more involved with the driving.

They asked us if we were interested in a new Giulia, since they have known us as owning nothing but Alfas, and we told him maybe if it came with the manual, but otherwise, no. No sale.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 04-13-2019 at 10:06 AM.
Del is offline  
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome