Want manual giulia.... - Page 47 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #691 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-07-2019, 01:13 PM
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Michael, you clearly don’t get why we prefer a manual. That’s fine, or rather it would be if you didn’t continuously tell us we’re flat out wrong (which you’re doing less now). You seem to favor technical ability over physical interaction with the car. If an automatic changes gear more efficiently, you prefer it.

I GREATLY prefer the feel of a good hydraulic steering rack to ANY electrically assisted system. If Alfa gave me the choice of having a straight hydraulic brake system — without the electronic interpretation — I’d be thrilled. As it is, I think it works well EXCEPT at low speeds, as you are nearly stopped. At that point, it starts varying the braking, which makes it almost impossible to come to a completely smooth stop. I HATE that.

But... you wonder why we’re not screaming about the EPAS and the electronic brakes like we are about wanting a manual ‘box. Here’s my theory: With the steering and the brakes, you do the same as before — you turn the steering wheel and you step on the brake pedal. The feel of those controls isn’t as good as it used to be, but you do the same thing. With the gearbox, what you do is very different. What you do with a manual gearbox is much more fun than the very best automatic there is. Or ever will be.

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post #692 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-07-2019, 05:09 PM
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I'll just leave this here:

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post #693 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-07-2019, 05:52 PM
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Paddle shift means super fast gear changes, but you are not making them. No challenge or skill required.

Equates perfectly with buying a 500hp Alfa Romeo in automatic form. Sure it's faster than a manual gearbox equipped version, but if I was that worried about performance over enjoyment, while the heck buy the Alfa in the first place. So many other cars will be faster.

People buy Alfas because they are irrational purchases where driving pleasure comes first, not performance, and yet utterly ridiculously the stupid company has taken some of that away. They have in one stupid decision reduced their own cars marketability.

If they cannot understand that, they should not and do not deserve our continued support. So yes, Alfa Romeo do not make cars for Alfisti anymore. It's just a badge for FIAT to F with.
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post #694 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-07-2019, 07:26 PM
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They should have brought the manuals to the US, period. Maybe they will smarten up and make them available on all models. When they do, I will switch over. I agree with everyone here. Manual is really the only way to fully drive. Although this Zf is fun, it does not have that mechanical feel, such as knowing exactly where the clutch engages as though you can see the splines and clutch moving in your head. There is none of that with with that auto, I have to transfer that feeling to the steering wheel and my body with how the car feels. BBW and throttle by wire also eliminate the feel. At least with a Manual, you would still have most of the connection with the car and driving. I have to say I am still feeling connected just not complete. I do like the car but it does have it's flaws as all cars do. I will say it's great in stop and go traffic which most of us deal with on a daily basis. lol

I vote Alfa offers manuals. Otherwise I might have to go a different route at some point.


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post #695 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 06:52 AM
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post #696 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 08:02 AM
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post #697 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 03:48 PM
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Over on the giulia forum I think this guy makes a solid point.

"Manuals used to be for performance oriented people who wanted the control and better performance afforded but by the manual because the autos were power sapping and too dumb to know when and where to shift correctly all the time. Then semi-autos came out and put all those issues to rest by being faster than any human could shift and still giving you control. Motorsports, where nostalgia is often anathema and weakness, moved right into the semi-auto train. Now in modern cars where the automatics have gotten increasingly more effiecent, smart and fast all the performance advantages of manuals has evaporated essentially leaving nostalgia as the main reason to like he autos. Well maybe also the undefinable feel people like in them, I do too, but unless I’m buying a car as a weekend toy I don’t really want to live with a manual day to day either." ~JerryNY

I tend to agree for the most part but I would still get a manual if available over the auto for nostalgic reasons we all discussed. I will also say that the auto is great in traffic which is what I believe most of us drive in on a daily basis. Plus the fact that we are debating manuals with BBW/DBW systems seems off a little too. Like I said before, keep your analog cars if that is what you want because there won't be anymore of those unless Alfa becomes the company it use to be which is doubtful, it's all about selling cars now. The digital cars and thus this Giulia are still fantastic cars but nothing like analog. I can't say for others. Nice to have a new Alfa though. Now on to find a 105 giulia!
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post #698 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Alfissimo Int. View Post
Over on the giulia forum I think this guy makes a solid point.

"Manuals used to be for performance oriented people who wanted the control and better performance afforded but by the manual because the autos were power sapping and too dumb to know when and where to shift correctly all the time. Then semi-autos came out and put all those issues to rest by being faster than any human could shift and still giving you control. Motorsports, where nostalgia is often anathema and weakness, moved right into the semi-auto train. Now in modern cars where the automatics have gotten increasingly more effiecent, smart and fast all the performance advantages of manuals has evaporated essentially leaving nostalgia as the main reason to like he autos. Well maybe also the undefinable feel people like in them, I do too, but unless I’m buying a car as a weekend toy I don’t really want to live with a manual day to day either." ~JerryNY

I tend to agree for the most part but I would still get a manual if available over the auto for nostalgic reasons we all discussed. I will also say that the auto is great in traffic which is what I believe most of us drive in on a daily basis. Plus the fact that we are debating manuals with BBW/DBW systems seems off a little too. Like I said before, keep your analog cars if that is what you want because there won't be anymore of those unless Alfa becomes the company it use to be which is doubtful, it's all about selling cars now. The digital cars and thus this Giulia are still fantastic cars but nothing like analog. I can't say for others. Nice to have a new Alfa though. Now on to find a 105 giulia! <img src="http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" />
It’s not just nostalgia. I was barely old enough to drive when the first food manumatics came out. I will drive manuals until the internal combustion engine is over.

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post #699 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 06:33 PM
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Not just nostalgia for me either. I live in the Metro NY area, so there’s no shortage of heavy traffic, sadly. I’d rather have the manual even for a daily (I’m speaking from lots of experience). Besides, it gives you something to do in traffic! I simply enjoy a manual more. Always.

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post #700 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 07:27 PM
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I agree with you both and I will repeat, keep your analog cars. May not be just nostalgia but it's a huge part of it. There is a part of all of us who grew up with manuals not to change, claiming there is no skill in automatics and not being one with a piece of metal. All of this is true but that all said I still love manuals but the auto is a nice as well. I still grab the "stick" in this new giulia trying to shift and accidentally putting into N because this is all NEW to me too. I am still not familiar with all the electronics and so forth. I may have to give this car up soon for an oldie. Drives me nuts but it's also neat and something I just need to learn. Nice thing is, you can have your cake and eat it too. You can own a manual analog and auto digital car. :P


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post #701 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 08:48 PM
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Over on the giulia forum I think this guy makes a solid point.

"Manuals used to be for performance oriented people who wanted the control and better performance afforded but by the manual because the autos were power sapping and too dumb to know when and where to shift correctly all the time. Then semi-autos came out and put all those issues to rest by being faster than any human could shift and still giving you control. Motorsports, where nostalgia is often anathema and weakness, moved right into the semi-auto train...
We're not talking about motorsports. Ultimate performance has no bearing on a street car; unless you're one of those twats that does 40 rolls on the highway.

What's important is all the little things that make your grocery getter more fun to drive on a daily basis. For many of us having a manual transmission is a significant one.

For what it's worth, my favorite car to drive on the track has a DCT so I "get" the performance side of it. My daily drivers have manuals, which makes mundane driving much more engaging.
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post #702 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 10:38 PM
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"What's important is all the little things that make your grocery getter more fun to drive on a daily basis. For many of us having a manual transmission is a significant one".

Exactly. My 1991 164S has been my enjoyable DD to the store among other locations since 1994. Just more fun than driving an appliance such as a Toyota Camry, lol.

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post #703 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 07:15 AM
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We're not talking about motorsports. Ultimate performance has no bearing on a street car; unless you're one of those twats that does 40 rolls on the highway.

What's important is all the little things that make your grocery getter more fun to drive on a daily basis. For many of us having a manual transmission is a significant one.

For what it's worth, my favorite car to drive on the track has a DCT so I "get" the performance side of it. My daily drivers have manuals, which makes mundane driving much more engaging.
I understand that. Yes on those twats! I agree with you 100%. For me the manual is choice. The giulia for me is not mundane at all. But that's my own opinion which means squat. If anyone here cannot have fun driving to the grocery store in this thing then don't buy one (yes it is clear your not). Plain and simple. No point in debating a car that none of you own that has no manual that you want? lol Even if it did, as mentioned we are debating a car with BBW and DBW that should have a manual. If Alfa were smart they'd offer a limited edition with manuals for those who want one. You know, the automatic is great though, you can mess with the infotainment system more without too much distraction playing your digital MP3 music! hahaha Oh and btw a lot of the industry does look at motorsports for mainstream production hence the use of this transmission and paddle shifters, BBW and DBW which was all used in motorsports.

I suppose with new technology we need to re-learn to drive. Lucky for the guys who learned to drive a manual (myself included) we have to learn to drive this kind of vehicle because at some point there will be no option for anything else...maybe...!? I suppose this is a "different" skill if that is the right word? I want a manual but there is none to be had unless I figure a way later to install one from a EU car.

I want hydraulic brakes as well and drive by actual wire but that's impossible too. I also want a CD player in my car because all the electronics are too much for me but that's not doable either. So what to do? Buy a older car. But I also want a new car. Dilemma city! My 164 for example had all that. But that was not the car to take the family on a long trip anymore in my opinion (becoming more unreliable) and had confidence to make it there and back without something to repair. I got tired of that.

So a car that is solid with a warranty and unfortunately without a manual is not the end of the world but hey it has an Alfa logo on it. I also enjoy driving it. More time with the car the more I learn how to drive this type of car.

I think there will always be folks who think new alfa's since the 164 are not alfa's. Maybe so. But is that not nostalgia in many ways? Anyway, that's all I have to say about it.


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post #704 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 07:33 AM
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Apparently the manual is desired for the QV with the Ferrari V6 version. Otherwise the four cylinder is automatic only unless it's a diesel, which is odd since the automatic is ideal for the diesel. Alfa fits the ZF 53 because of the diesel heavy torque load. This is a very old manual gearbox also found on BMW. Jaguar made do with the lower spec version and technically so could Alfa for the Ferrari V6 version. The heavier manual is only about 6 kg lighter than the ZF 8 spd automatic if you include the weight of the clutch. 175 lbs plus at least 12 lbs for the clutch and all it's controls against 189 lbs for the ZF automatic. Just incidentally the ZF 6 spd manual is a drop in fit for the ZF 8 spd automatic as the boltholes and total length are identical.

I forgot to mention the torque vectoring computer controlled lsd on the Giulia QV. To get an analogue mechanical lsd you have to get the four cylinder. Another interference with that Kansei sensation Mazda introduced to our lexicon (a passing reference to horse riding, which I confess I do not understand at all).

The ZF automatic has a wet plate friction clutch which is activated with the paddle or gear selector to operate concurrently with and automatically during the gearshift. You can easily sense this clutch operating, it's what gives the paddle shift the direct feel of a manual shift. How far you have to move the lever to select the desired gear seems a small thing to deliver the vital sensory experience described in this thread. The ZF automatic in full manual mode delivers the same sequential manually controlled shift as a manual shift motorcycle transmission or, for the lucky few with money to burn, a mechanical sequential transmission such as the FIAT 500 or Ariel Atom can deliver in the correct very expensive specification.

Incidentally, Mercedes builds a planetary automatic with no torque converter using a dry plate version of the computer controlled lock up friction clutch to disconnect and reconnect the gearbox to the engine during a ratio change.

To be clear, I am fully familiar with the experience of driving a manual shift car. Until 2008 I drove nothing else unless forced to by a car rental agency (European car rental companies are rightly sceptical about renting a manual car to anyone speaking with a North American English accent). The ZF6 in my Jaguar XF converted me away from manual shift in any modern high performance car. Heck even modern econoboxes are fun to drive with the latest automatics. The final nail in that coffin was delivered by a McLaren MC12 which is offered exclusively with their excellent DCT.

When Porsche put rev matching on their manual shift GT3 the game was finally up.
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post #705 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 10:14 AM
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...debating a car with BBW and DBW...
The BBW and DBW should be seamless to the driver and function the same as if they were manual. The BBW on the Guilia does need some work in that area.

I think the DBW (probably more accurate to say throttle by wire) on the Multiair engines is pretty interesting. It uses a combination of the throttle plate and variable valve lift to control how much air is available to the engine. The system works fairly seamlessly to the driver with the position of the accelerator determining the percentage of airflow to the engine just like a manual throttle would. I've also driven some pretty terrible throttle by wire cars, so not all systems are equal.
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