Want manual giulia.... - Page 46 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #676 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 09:20 PM
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The design doesn't seem interesting to me. If they ever come with a coupe, I hope it looks nothing like this - like 105 Berlina and GTV - completely different designs.
Alfa used to dare to be different. This just seems like any other.
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post #677 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 10:03 PM Thread Starter
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Great video..... the gear changing is only half the fun, controlling the delivery of the power to the road via the far left 3rd pedal is where all the fun and control remains, especially when your laying some legs down the road

1966 Giulia Sprint GT Veloce - slightly modified!
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post #678 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 03:38 AM
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The car has also a function that lets you gear with full gas pedal without lifting: clutch and full gas pedal. Saves one right foot movement when you are in a hurry. The test is in english and then the same in german.

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post #679 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 07:35 AM
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Great video..... the gear changing is only half the fun, controlling the delivery of the power to the road via the far left 3rd pedal is where all the fun and control remains, especially when your laying some legs down the road
The only time you can use the clutch for "controlling the delivery of power to the road" is from a standing start, unless of course you completely screw up and find yourself in a spin. I don't recommend a spin on a public road.

One thought occurs to me after re-reading all the posts pining for the manual gearbox is that no manual shift aficionado has been able to describe what exactly he or she is seeking through activation of the clutch pedal on a standing start.

All other applications of the clutch pedal should be as short and quickly executed as possible. The clutch is dipped only for the selection of the desired gear once the car is moving. No skilled driver uses the clutch for any other purpose. Just what is the aesthetic in operation here?

I suggest it is solely to enjoy the technology of the past, which is of course a very fine idea, but in a brand new technological marvel the Giulia represents it remains an odd thing to want.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
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post #680 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 07:38 AM
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The car has also a function that lets you gear with full gas pedal without lifting: clutch and full gas pedal. Saves one right foot movement when you are in a hurry. The test is in english and then the same in german.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EINFALEFQ0U
The ZF automatic does this in every gear on every shift at any throttle opening. Next you'll be raving over the rev matching feature touted by a number of makers of "manual shift" cars including now even Porsche. Is nothing sacred?

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
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post #681 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 09:09 AM
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Michael, you seem to be confounded by the notion that a “low-tech” item — such as a manual gearbox — can or should exist within an otherwise high-tech environment. We’re not confounded by that notion. Regarding the just-buy-an old-car argument, why shouldn’t we who want a manual gearbox be able to enjoy the other numerous benefits of a new car? Since new and high-tech equals better — FOR YOU — I’m guessing you can hardly wait for fully autonomous cars.

2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia Ti Sport Q4 Performance, 2005 Aston Martin Vanquish S, 2009 Aston Martin V8 Vantage, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2007 Jaguar XJ8, 2018 Audi Q7 (wife's)
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post #682 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 09:18 AM
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Oh, Michael, about the automated rev-matching with manuals, as long as it can be switched off, then I have no objection to it. If it couldn’t be turned off, I wouldn’t want it. Yes, one of the things I enjoy about driving with a manual ‘box is rev-matching — doing it myself. No auto ‘box of any kind could ever provide the enjoyment and satisfaction — for me and many on this thread — of a perfectly executed heel-toe downshift done entirely by my hands, feet, ears and head. I like driving the car, not the car driving the car.
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post #683 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 09:19 AM
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It's my guess that it seems that Michael either does not recognize the enjoyable visceral/manual interaction with a machine (although I think perhaps he does), or more likely it is just not important to him. So be it. For the rest of us who do enjoy the process and action of shifting a manual up and down through the gears, we favor the interaction involved with controlling the car through actual physical input of hands and feet, appreciating the direct connection, utilizing the skills acquired for those actions to be completed properly (?), the machine responding directly, for bettor or worse, lol. The automatic subtracts from that in my own driving.

IMO, and my own experience, just because something is newer doesn't necessarily make it better, just perhaps different and/or more complicated, with features which may just be answers to questions no one asked. Many examples of that all around us.

Lol, do I reject everything which is newer? No, of course not, but it does have to be useful to me, satisfying my preferences for functionality and/or enjoyment/fun content. Otherwise, no sale.

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

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post #684 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 07:23 PM
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Using airplane analogy to eliminate the car bias effect.

I'm in a fighter plane for real? I want the latest technology.

I'm flying for fun I want a biplane with the wind in the wires.

Like British fighter pilots in 1940 I want a Spitfire and not a Gloster Gladiator.

Sure, I want the leather helmet too, but not in a modern car. Don't need stringback driving gloves either, I expect a heated steering wheel.

The bit I'm not getting is why anyone would want a Giulia with an olden days transmission.

I do indeed understand manual gearboxes. The double clutch synchronized downshift I learned on my very first car, with a mostly shot second gear synchronizer and a three on the tree. Getting first gear on a downshift absolutely required a double clutch exact rev matching shift, not synchronized. My 1982 GTV would not engage first gear on a downshift without it, and second gear was iffy. My track experience in an Australian super V8 with a Corvette V8 and a six speed manual ( RHD to boot) included an admonition not to heel and toe nor double clutch the downshift. The synchronizers were invented to obviate the need for these amateur driver skills. Just select the gear and let in the clutch, on a race track you shouldn't even need to think about whether full throttle is required. Yes it is unless you're on the brakes.

But truly guys the Giulia is a 21st century masterpiece ( and truly gorgeous just incidentally, I followed a bright white Q4 just today in my supercharged manual shift BRZ, that's a Sophia Loren rear end, guys). The brake by wire is a bit unrefined (according to the Euro press, I had no fault to find but then I didn't drive the ceramic brake option). The electric power steering is a bit digital but pretty darned good. The ZF 8 spd transmission is now 6 year old technology and by far the best modern aspect of this car apart from the computerized driver aids: abs stability control and traction control, which incidentally you cannot switch off.

It all comes down to context. You just do not want a jet engine powering your biplane. Trust me on this point.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new

Last edited by Michael Smith; 04-06-2019 at 07:33 PM.
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post #685 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
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Your analogy is ridiculous!!

Why is it that everyone who’s driven a new manual Giulia wants one?

For complete visceral experience we should be riding motorcycles (which I do off road), but since I don’t want to be temporary Australian on the road I drive manually controlled four wheeled vehicles.

I wish you would just give up with your consistent harping as Alfa/FCA will survive without us manual lovers.

1966 Giulia Sprint GT Veloce - slightly modified!
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post #686 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 09:03 PM
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Michael, you acknowledge that the bit you’re not getting is why anyone would want a Giulia — 21st century car that it is — with an olden days transmission. It’s simply that we enjoy it. It doesn’t matter that it’s old tech, and it still works quite well. I like the “mechanicalness” of the car, and there can’t be much debate that the driver is more involved in operating the car when it has a gear lever and a clutch pedal. Whether one likes that, and how much it matters, obviously varies among people. There is no right or wrong when it comes to which someone prefers. It is, though, a crying shame to be denied the choice, even in a 21st century car.

2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia Ti Sport Q4 Performance, 2005 Aston Martin Vanquish S, 2009 Aston Martin V8 Vantage, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2007 Jaguar XJ8, 2018 Audi Q7 (wife's)
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post #687 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-07-2019, 12:10 AM
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The bit I'm not getting is why anyone would want a Giulia with an olden days transmission.
I don't think you're trying to understand either.

When I first drove a Guilia I liked it quite a lot. The things that impress me the most are the feel of the car on turn in, the handling of the chassis, and I'm impressed with the performance they get out of a 2L. After I drove the QV I really wanted one, and started thinking about trading in my current sedan, a BMW 335 with a 6MT. After thinking about it critically, I've come to realize that one of the things that really makes that 335 enjoyable to drive is the manual transmission. Rowing the gears just brings me joy.

So yes, it makes sense to pair the latest technology in engine performance and suspension/chassis design with a manual transmission.

Today is day 872 of me NOT trading in my 6MT BMW on a brand new Guilia.
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post #688 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-07-2019, 06:47 AM
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I have thought about this particular issue a great deal over the years as automatic transmissions continued to improve. The advance made by ZF with their Mechatronic computerized transmission module first seen in their 6 spd version was the change that put automatics into the lead. Prior to that there were no automatics delivering as satisfying a drive as a well engineered manual (an important qualifier since a number of available manual transmissions were not good to drive either because of the clutch, the gearshift or both). A quick Google gets you this commentary from probably the best car magazine currently available, in English anyway:

https://www.evo.co.uk/reviews/17702/...en-waiting-for

I too refused to buy an automatic equipped car until 2008.

I understand what I look for in the engineering of any car. In 2008 the manual transmission ceased to offer any advantage over a ZF automatic. I still preferred manual shift to the DCT type. Now the DCT has also caught and surpassed the manual shift.

In addition to this issue there remains the problem of lack of demand perhaps adversely affecting the engineering of the most up to date manual gearboxes. I know Jaguar had problems with their decision to introduce a ZF 6 spd manual in the F Type for example.

Is the shift quality of the ZF manual transmission in the European Giulia actually any good? Does a heel and toe downshift even work well? The steering is essentially digital in that the actual movement of the rack is effected by a computer controlled electric motor. The steering wheel is merely an analog input device to the steering computer. The brake pedal is essentially digital, analog foot pressure converts to digitally controlled line pressure exerted by and controlled completely by the ABS system.

Indeed, it is more surprising that this purely electronic braking system is acceptable but an automatic transmission that can be controlled by the driver is not. All you are missing is the pedal activation of the clutch, which as I have pointed out is an on/off switch when the manual transmission car is driven correctly, apart from moving off from stationary.

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Last edited by Michael Smith; 04-07-2019 at 07:11 AM.
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post #689 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-07-2019, 08:06 AM
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Electronic aides are just substitutes for the real thing, why can all the aides be switched off for those who want to do the job themselves, because some can do the job better!

Anyway ease up folks, here a substitute for the real thing: (for Electric cars)

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post #690 of 884 (permalink) Old 04-07-2019, 10:50 AM
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"All you are missing is the pedal activation of the clutch"

Oh no, it's much more than that, and the fact that you say that demonstrates to me at least that, perhaps, you do not get what we are talking about, the enjoyment of the total mechanical interaction of driving a manual transmission car, the hands on, mind active, process.

Lol, would you want an automatic horse to ride? Most likely not for sure. It's the interaction of the ride, the horse reacting to you, your physical and verbal input, and the feeling through your "seat of the pants" of this real time interaction, a bonding of movements and reactions between you and the "vehicle", so to speak. That's the interaction people really like about riding a horse, and sort of the same as the enjoyment we get interacting with the vehicle when driving our style of car.

You might be happiest with an automatic driverless car.

BTW, have to laugh, as I remember my mother mentioning one day that when as child she rode her horse to school or to town in North Dakota, she could just say home or town, nudge the horse to start in that direction, and the horse would take her there with no additional direction or interaction. A "driverless" vehicle! Maybe your kind of horse.

But, as usual, peace.

Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 04-07-2019 at 10:54 AM.
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