Want manual giulia.... - Page 40 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #586 of 884 (permalink) Old 08-30-2018, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
This is just a holdover from driving manual gearboxes all that time. When I bought my first automatic, just a 6 spd, I was sold on the acceptability because it had a manual mode. After a few weeks I found it completely unnecessary to try to manually shift the transmission. With an 8 spd it is just absurd to manually shift. Most amusing is the criticism that with an automatic you don't know which gear you're in. It doesn't matter, the transmission is automatic. Always in the correct gear.

Audi fits the same ZF 8 spd to its automatic equipped cars. Each car maker is free to modify ZF standard software and most do to some degree, especially in sport mode.

The one drawback to using only D rather than S is modern fuel economy rules require that D shift early to save fuel and reduce CO2 emissions. Using S will reproduce a more manual shift experience but will use a lot more fuel most of the time. I hardly use S either and my Jaguar has a dynamic mode which delivers almost full manual control to the driver. I never use it.
It's truly remarkable that you, in a previous post, think you're "encouraging" people to think this through -- because then they'll come to the "right" conclusion that they're being blockheads (yes, you've called us that several times). That you actually think we haven't thought this through is astounding, among other things.

You. Don't Get. It. We DON'T CARE that the auto can do the job "better." Your amusement at people saying that one reason they don't like automatics is because you don't know what gear you're in. I'm at least as amused that you don't get why that's an issue. The gear I'm in is interesting to me. Shifting the gears is enjoyable to me. It's part of feeling connected to the car. I like to know what gear I'm in. With a manual, I always know. With the auto, even in manual mode, I have to look at the dash display to know what gear I'm in. I don't like having to do that. To be clear, Michael, it is my prerogative not to like that. When I want to shift, for example, into 2nd gear, with a manual 'box 2nd gear is always in the same place -- I simply move the gear lever to that slot. No matter whether the car had been in 3rd, 4th, or whatever gear, 2nd is always in the same place. With the auto, I have to look at the display to know what gear the car is currently in, and then decide how many times I have to pull the paddle to get 2nd. That is less enjoyable to me. Of course, you think I'm being a blockhead and the automatic would simply find 2nd on its own, but I DON'T CARE because no matter how well it does its job, I find that BORING. Technically impressive, but BORING. I bought an Alfa Romeo to NOT be bored.

I have ZERO interest in the automatic shifting automatically. It's very good at it, but it is NOT always in the right gear -- it is not capable of seeing ahead and anticipating road or traffic conditions. More importantly, it cannot know what is in my head. At best, I find letting the auto shift itself boring. So I shift it myself. That I find enjoyable, and the beautifully done aluminum paddles with their well-judged action and feel make a vital difference. That said, I would prefer a manual by an enormous margin.

I am among those who ultimately bought a new Giulia in spite of it being auto-only. I would have bought one immediately upon its intro had it been available with a manual 'box. Even though I now own a Giulia, this thread IS THE BUSINESS CASE for a manual Giulia that FCA (and you) refuse to acknowledge exists.
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post #587 of 884 (permalink) Old 08-30-2018, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Max Pershyn View Post
UOTE=Sketchl;8308116]Congratulations Alfisti164l

Note that itís human nature to just buckle to commercial limitations and make compromises in life, no drama.
Iíve driven the new Giulia several times and as in my original post said that itís awesome, but iím not going to compromise as there are still many brands that still produce manuals for the drivers that want one.

Itís squarely on FCA that if they want my money theyíll have to produce a manual version Alfa, itís that simple.

Saluti
Sergio
Quote:
Alfa makes manual Giulia, for the different markets. I would not blame FCA, I would blame 92% of customers in your country that prefer automatic in this class. There is no any reason to design, make and homologate Giulia with manual gearbox for such a niche market as Australia.


368 cars has been sold in Australia in 7 month of 2018. Do you think if manual was available this number would be 1000? No, because in Australia only 8-9% cars have manual gearbox. Sergio, do you think should be a reason to design such a car for hypothetical 50 units of sales per year?

About USA/Canada. 7220+349 = 7569 cars in 7 month. Fewer than 3 percent of cars sold in the U.S. these days have stick shifts. It means Giulia in manual version can be sold in 390 units per year. Three hundred ninety cars for North American car market. Does anyone from adepts of manual here thought about these numbers? Does it make any sense to design, certify and promote a car that can be sold in 390 units per year?
Max, to conclude that fewer than 3% of US car sales overall are manuals means that 3% or fewer Giulia sales would be manual is massively flawed. Perhaps that's the same faulty analysis FCA did to conclude it wasn't worth it...

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post #588 of 884 (permalink) Old 08-30-2018, 08:50 AM
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Well, FCA/Alfa really doesn't care what people want, only what they want to sell to them. I've owned nothing but Alfas since the late 60's, and I've never ever been asked as to what I would want if Alfa introduced a new car. They could care less, as Alfa owners of the past do not fit their new customer demographics at all. In general, owners of older Alfas in the US are separate from FCA, and should accept that. ...
Del, I'm not sure I understand what you meant by the part of your quote I bolded, but... I've only been an Alfa owner for a month, but I've always been a big fan and I've been a car guy my entire life. I joined the Alfa club and went to a club breakfast, and it seems clear to me that many long-time Alfisti are buying Giulias -- many of the Giulia owners also have old Alfas, which is also apparent in the forums. Certainly FCA needs far more people to buy the new cars than there are owners of old Alfas, but long-term Alfisti should also be important to FCA. Their enthusiasm could go a long way toward generating excitement for the car and the marque, not to mention general good will. The new Giulia is very much an enthusiast's car, and the enthusiast market in the US loves manuals. The demand is real, and they should listen.
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post #589 of 884 (permalink) Old 08-30-2018, 09:05 AM
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I mean only as far as FCA is concerned, not potential or owners of the new Alfas.

Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #590 of 884 (permalink) Old 08-30-2018, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Speedraser View Post
It's truly remarkable that you, in a previous post, think you're "encouraging" people to think this through -- because then they'll come to the "right" conclusion that they're being blockheads (yes, you've called us that several times). That you actually think we haven't thought this through is astounding, among other things.

You. Don't Get. It. We DON'T CARE that the auto can do the job "better." Your amusement at people saying that one reason they don't like automatics is because you don't know what gear you're in. I'm at least as amused that you don't get why that's an issue. The gear I'm in is interesting to me. Shifting the gears is enjoyable to me. It's part of feeling connected to the car. I like to know what gear I'm in. With a manual, I always know. With the auto, even in manual mode, I have to look at the dash display to know what gear I'm in. I don't like having to do that. To be clear, Michael, it is my prerogative not to like that. When I want to shift, for example, into 2nd gear, with a manual 'box 2nd gear is always in the same place -- I simply move the gear lever to that slot. No matter whether the car had been in 3rd, 4th, or whatever gear, 2nd is always in the same place. With the auto, I have to look at the display to know what gear the car is currently in, and then decide how many times I have to pull the paddle to get 2nd. That is less enjoyable to me. Of course, you think I'm being a blockhead and the automatic would simply find 2nd on its own, but I DON'T CARE because no matter how well it does its job, I find that BORING. Technically impressive, but BORING. I bought an Alfa Romeo to NOT be bored.

I am among those who ultimately bought a new Giulia in spite of it being auto-only. I would have bought one immediately upon its intro had it been available with a manual 'box. Even though I now own a Giulia, this thread IS THE BUSINESS CASE for a manual Giulia that FCA (and you) refuse to acknowledge exists.
Well I couldn't have said it better myself. As another of those who bought the new Giulia in spite of it being auto-only, I'm with you as well.

For all of your viewing pleasure (and most likely anger), here's a comparison I wrote for the Giulia forum on my new Giulia vs my 164S.

https://www.giuliaforums.com/forum/5...a-vs-164s.html

Feel free to register and take me down a notch or two. I enjoyed thinking about the two cars as competitors, and who knows what you guys will think.

Jonathan
1992 164S, 1974 GTV, 1967 Saab 96, 1969 Jaguar XKE Coupe
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post #591 of 884 (permalink) Old 08-30-2018, 02:28 PM
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No problem, your comparison sounded reasonable throughout. However, if I had to pick on something, above and beyond the essential better sounds of the 91S, definitely not wanting something which sounds more like a Kia, I would choose the following:

"Giulia is drop dead gorgeous and will remain so forever"

Nah, wrong answer for many (yes, I know it is a personal thing). An old longtime Alfa friend of mine, upon seeing the car for the first time said, woof, one kind of nothing looking car, with no Italian styling. And when we saw our first on the highway as we were passing it, I couldn't tell what it was until I saw the front end of course. Thought at first it might have been a big Nissan or something. Did like the dark blue color, though. Even now, when we see one (rare around Seattle yet) we still can't tell what it is at first, except for the grill. Well, the wheel are a hint.

Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 08-30-2018 at 04:03 PM.
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post #592 of 884 (permalink) Old 08-30-2018, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Speedraser View Post
Max, to conclude that fewer than 3% of US car sales overall are manuals means that 3% or fewer Giulia sales would be manual is massively flawed. Perhaps that's the same faulty analysis FCA did to conclude it wasn't worth it...
I'd like to know where Max got the sales figures. That looks like proprietary data. If it is, it could possibly cause problems for the owners of the AlfaBB.

@Max Pershyn what is the source of the information you posted?

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post #593 of 884 (permalink) Old 08-30-2018, 09:15 PM
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I'd like to know where Max got the sales figures. That looks like proprietary data. If it is, it could possibly cause problems for the owners of the AlfaBB.

@Max Pershyn what is the source of the information you posted?
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post #594 of 884 (permalink) Old 08-30-2018, 09:27 PM
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Max, to conclude that fewer than 3% of US car sales overall are manuals means that 3% or fewer Giulia sales would be manual is massively flawed. Perhaps that's the same faulty analysis FCA did to conclude it wasn't worth it...
If I am not wrong in Europe about 12% of Giulia QV were ordered with manual gearbox. It is about 300 cars per year.

If we are talking about hypothetical sales of Giulia QV with manual gearbox in North America, using the same share, the most optimistic number would be 60-70 cars per year.
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post #595 of 884 (permalink) Old 08-30-2018, 09:54 PM
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Definitely not just the Quadrifoglio — Giulia and Giulia Ti also.

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post #596 of 884 (permalink) Old 08-30-2018, 10:25 PM
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The Giulia and Giulia Ti would make up the bulk of cars sold with the manuals. The QV is not the big seller.

Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #597 of 884 (permalink) Old 08-31-2018, 05:20 AM
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Definitely not just the Quadrifoglio — Giulia and Giulia Ti also.
They are not exist. I mean they were not designed from the beginning with manual. 2.0 engines can be mounted with automatic transmission only. There is no suitable manual gearbox on the market that can hold 400+ Nm and support AWD. Try to check Getrag or ZF and find something that can work.

So we can talk only about QV or diesels under 180HP. For MY2019 cars we can talk only about diesels under 190HP as QV with manual was discontinued almost one year ago (December, 14th of 2017).

As I remember even in 2017 in Europe with full line of models a share of Giulia with manual was less than 30%.

Last edited by Max Pershyn; 08-31-2018 at 05:23 AM.
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post #598 of 884 (permalink) Old 08-31-2018, 05:41 AM
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30% is a very significant percentage.

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post #599 of 884 (permalink) Old 08-31-2018, 07:12 AM
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30% is a very significant percentage.
For diesel cars no. They were ordered mostly for fleet sales, even for taxi.
Do not expect the same percentage for petrol cars.
And again, QV with manual is discontinued. No point to discuss imaginary things at all. The only one way to get Giulia with manual is to buy low powered diesel car. I think adepts of manual would be "glad" to drive 136HP Giulia with manual gearbox.

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post #600 of 884 (permalink) Old 08-31-2018, 07:34 AM
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And by the way, Eco version with 2.2 diesel engine, the most efficient one, that consumes less than 4 l/100 km equipped with automatic gearbox.
So, cars with manual are slower (torque cut at 400nm), consume more fuel. What is the point to buy it for customers?

And I forgot to mention. Alfa has sporty image in North America only. In Europe, Asia, Australia Alfa Romeo is a mainstream brand. It's happened 55 years ago in Italy when Alfa made Renault R8 under Alfa brand, then Alfasud, ARNA, 33, Tipo 2 and Tipo 4 cars, MiTo, etc...
Alfa completely lost sporty image, its a brand for mainstream buyers, not for sports car enthusiasts.

Manual gearbox is a symbol of sports car in North America only. In Europe/Asia it is a symbol of old outdated technology, symbol of poor people or slow diesel cars.


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Last edited by Max Pershyn; 08-31-2018 at 07:40 AM.
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