Want manual giulia.... - Page 16 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #226 of 884 (permalink) Old 11-08-2017, 08:46 AM
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I must concede to Michael Smith that the manual transmission is, indeed, obsolete from a pure numbers standpoint. Nobody can seriously question that, and I don't think anyone here is. It's a matter of what each individual finds enjoyable to his or her taste, preferences, and habits, as well as the kind of driving they do.

I've owned an automatic BMW (for 11 years!) and I liked it a lot actually. The automatic tranny was a ZF 5 speed, and was excellent with quick shifts and an excellent manual mode, though I did find myself wishing for a 3rd pedal at times. But that car was my daily driver, and I wanted a balance of convenience with fun, which I got. My current cars (GTI and GTV-6) I really only use for pleasure, save for occasional trip to go shopping for various things that aren't available within walking distance...

This argument we're all having here is a lot like the watch world. Quartz is, with very few exceptions, superior (as far as time-keeping goes) to mechanical watches. A $200 Swatch chronograph times down to 1/10th of a second. To get that in a mechanical watch, you need to buy a Zenith El Primero (somewhere around $7500 new, or maybe $5000 on the forum market). Same goes for non chrono. Yet Rolex (for example), who only make mechanical watches, produce 1 million watches a year. And they all sell. It's a similar story for other brands like Zenith, Patek Phillippe (though in much smaller numbers), Omega, IWC...even Longines and Tissot (and Swatch themselves!) make mechanical movements. People know mechanical watches are obsolete, but they still want them for a variety of reasons.

Of course, by pure numbers, I bet Casio, Fossil, Timex and a bunch of other Quartz only brands outsell all these manufactures 10 to 1. At least.

I see manual transmissions going the same way. The majority of people who don't really care much about the "feel" or experience, or who want the absolute fastest or most efficient vehicle by the numbers, or just want something that gets them to point A to point B will buy an automatic. And that's fine! A small, though not insignificant, minority of drivers will still be out there buying manuals as long as manufacturers will produce them, knowing they are obsolete, but also realizing they provide an experience that can't really otherwise be duplicated.

So, in conclusion, I think both sides are correct in their own way. If we can all agree that part of the pleasure of a car comes from how it makes us feel when we drive it, then we can all agree that it's OK to like one transmission over another for that reason.
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post #227 of 884 (permalink) Old 11-08-2017, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MALDI View Post
Can we now argue if front-wheel drive is better than rear-wheel drive?
Not possible. FWD is clearly superior for a road car up to around 300 bhp then you benefit from awd.

Rwd doesn't really work for a road car. In general.

For Canada all Giulias will be awd for this reason.

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post #228 of 884 (permalink) Old 11-08-2017, 12:29 PM
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Wanting a manual is hardly limited to older folks. The average readership of sites like jalopnik is probably around 25-30, and it's full of people who prefer manuals. I don't think people are saying that the latest autos don't have virtues. I appreciate that I turned better lap times in a DCT-equipped BMW M3 than I would have in the manual- and I spent more time working on choosing a correct line rather than getting my shifts right. It's just that, at the end of the day, I would have rather driven home in a 6 speed manual version. You have to understand that some people just like what they like and there is no objective rational reason for it. If things were rational, the BMW X6 wouldn't exist, but it seems to be a good seller for the brand.
Preferring a manual in a car like a Giulia is not rational.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying driving a manual shift car but not a 2017 model year four door sedan designed for daily use.

The initial complaint on this thread is that Alfa is wrong not to offer a manual shift for North America. Several posters say they will not buy an automatic version.

That is just silly. The automatic Giulia is a better car in every way than the manual version could possibly be. To refrain from buying one merely because it has with to come with an automatic is just throwing a tantrum. The automatic uses a clutch, just like the manual. The automatic has a fully manual shift mode just like a manual. The automatic never interrupts the power, cannot be mis-shifted and downshifts if rpm drop too low. In normal mode it should upshift at redline for you also. Most will have a mode which downshifts for cornering and holds the gear when the software senses the driver is exuberantly piling on the lateral g. What's not to like about all of that.
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post #229 of 884 (permalink) Old 11-08-2017, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
Preferring a manual in a car like a Giulia is not rational.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying driving a manual shift car but not a 2017 model year four door sedan designed for daily use.

The initial complaint on this thread is that Alfa is wrong not to offer a manual shift for North America. Several posters say they will not buy an automatic version.

That is just silly. The automatic Giulia is a better car in every way than the manual version could possibly be. To refrain from buying one merely because it has with to come with an automatic is just throwing a tantrum. The automatic uses a clutch, just like the manual. The automatic has a fully manual shift mode just like a manual. The automatic never interrupts the power, cannot be mis-shifted and downshifts if rpm drop too low. In normal mode it should upshift at redline for you also. Most will have a mode which downshifts for cornering and holds the gear when the software senses the driver is exuberantly piling on the lateral g. What's not to like about all of that.
Driving a performance sedan isn't rational either. We'd all be driving Camrys if rationality was the only factor. There's no trophies for being first in the race home from work (unless you consider a speeding ticket a trophy).

My daily driver is a 2016 model year performance sedan that is only available in manual. I'm not throwing a tantrum- I drove a lot of cars before I bought my car and this was the one I most enjoyed driving- in large part because it had that elusive third pedal yet still had room to cart a family. To paraphrase JFK: "We choose to drive manual transmissions in this decade not because it is easy, but because it is hard- because pushing a third pedal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept."
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post #230 of 884 (permalink) Old 11-08-2017, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
Preferring a manual in a car like a Giulia is not rational.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying driving a manual shift car but not a 2017 model year four door sedan designed for daily use.
I tend to agree - a new car designed for daily driver duties is probably better with an automatic because it's more aligned with it's mission. I can see that, kind of, with the 4 cylinder versions of the Giulia. But the Quadrifoglio? I'm not sure that car would be a good choice of daily driver even with an automatic (the same goes for an M3, it's competitor). That just seems like a fun, weekend car that's occasionally used for daily, mundane things.

On the other hand, humans are not exactly rational in decision making or feelings (ask me how I know...). If we were, then the only cars for sale would be a Honda Civic, Accord, and maybe an Odyssey, because that's really all we'd ever need. And, honestly, that's all we actually do need. (Setting aside pickup trucks, vans, and other vehicles used for specific business needs).
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post #231 of 884 (permalink) Old 11-08-2017, 04:26 PM
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If i could rationalize the price the QF Giulia awd with automatic would be my daily driver today. If you have not driven one you should.

The turbo four is also astonishingly good and unlike any of the competition.

I am pretty passionate about encouraging everyone to overlook the lack of a manual option. Keep your mind open and just try one.

These cars are amazing to drive.

It's worth remembering that turbo engines use full 3D engine management mapping with full feedback from the right foot, the transmission and the stability control. The combination can get downright spooky it makes the car so quick to drive.
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post #232 of 884 (permalink) Old 11-08-2017, 04:30 PM
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Driving a performance sedan isn't rational either. We'd all be driving Camrys if rationality was the only factor. There's no trophies for being first in the race home from work (unless you consider a speeding ticket a trophy).

My daily driver is a 2016 model year performance sedan that is only available in manual. I'm not throwing a tantrum- I drove a lot of cars before I bought my car and this was the one I most enjoyed driving- in large part because it had that elusive third pedal yet still had room to cart a family. To paraphrase JFK: "We choose to drive manual transmissions in this decade not because it is easy, but because it is hard- because pushing a third pedal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept."
Well, let's not get too carried away. The Camry is capable but having to drive one is like a kind of living death sentence. I try to avoid Toyota's even as rentals. Odd that considering that the Lexus IS and GS series made by the very same company and using the same engines are very, very capable cars. Toyota makes great engines, Lotus buys a lot of them.

The Giulia is just on another plane altogether. It does everything a Camry can do but does not try to destroy your will to live. Don't let the absence of one pedal deprive you of a truly sublime drive. I a m n o t exaggerating.
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post #233 of 884 (permalink) Old 11-08-2017, 04:48 PM Thread Starter
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The fact still remains following on from my original post that there are Alfisti globally that will not purchase a new auto Giulia (QV or otherwise) unless a manual version is offered, no matter the rational.

It's not as if I haven't driven the new Giulia and blatantly rejected new technology! I've given the Giulia extensive test drives to allow it a fair opportunity to persuade me, but unfortunately the sum of all desires doesn’t equal to a purchase.

For the passionate few we'll stick to what we want in life and not what the marketeers want us to purchase...... It's definitely a bummer for us few, but to be honest it has opened my market to other new manuals such as the M2 which I would have never considered!

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post #234 of 884 (permalink) Old 11-08-2017, 05:06 PM
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While a little off topic, I have to share this story.

Some years ago, when I owned my BMW, i took it in for service at BMW of Rochester. I needed a loaner and they were out, so they paid for a car from Enterprise next door. What did I get? A Lincoln Town Car. As crazy as it sounds, I really, really liked that car. It was quicker than you'd think, handled better than you'd think, and was literally more comfortable than my living room couch. And the technology was 4.6 V8 and an antiquated 4 speed automatic (or so that's what I think it was). I had the car for 4 days and I drove it about 750 miles, including a completely unnecessary trip to Buffalo, another unnecessary one to Ithaca, and just random driving around with friends...deliberately going over bumps so we could not feel them.

Back on topic, I haven't drive the Giulia but have sat in it a few times. Maybe I will give it a try soon when it comes time to trade the GTI...though I admit I'm chomping at the bit for the "rumored" Giulia Sprint.

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post #235 of 884 (permalink) Old 11-08-2017, 07:03 PM
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Strangely, I find myself on BOTH sides of this argument!

Before we got our Giulia QV I was 100% sure I'd rather have a manual. But there were so many other things I was passionate about in the car that we got it anyway.

Now that I've driven the automatic, I'm impressed to the point where I question whether the manual would be more fun to drive. The ZF8 is really that good! And I have rarely driven it as an "auto", it's just too fun and engaging to shift with the paddles.

But I definitely still wish I could drive a manual to either confirm or deny my suspicions that it would be better.
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post #236 of 884 (permalink) Old 11-08-2017, 08:09 PM
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this is such a deep/informative thread. thank you all
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post #237 of 884 (permalink) Old 11-09-2017, 05:09 AM
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Yeah, well, I drove my 26 year old 164 out to dinner and back last night. It's technically my wife's car now but she let me drive. I hardly get to drive it now, no memory position for the seat or mirrors, but the snows were on it and not on the Jag. My wife doesn't like riding in the BRZ and the cabin air filter needs changing in the SAAB Aero (as in what died in here?) you know how it goes....

Officially, as of right now, all bets are off. Alfa should build a manual shift Giulia for North America.

Even if they only sell one.

You know, I bet the they do when sales begin to sag, as they always do, and sell it as a Veloce.....

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post #238 of 884 (permalink) Old 11-09-2017, 11:00 AM Thread Starter
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Officially, as of right now, all bets are off. Alfa should build a manual shift Giulia for North America.
Life is amazing when you have an epiphany

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post #239 of 884 (permalink) Old 11-09-2017, 12:58 PM Thread Starter
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Interesting to see Singer/Williams developing their new 500hp aircooled power plant with a manual:


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post #240 of 884 (permalink) Old 11-09-2017, 02:11 PM
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Personally I could live with either manual or automatic in my garage for fun driving, and use an electric car without gear for daily driving!

But since subject is craving for the manual version, here a couple of links:

Driving and talking with a manual in Italy. The guy from England wanted to see how the manual was in comparison with the auto only in England - and he loved it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR-c...#t=295.7173368

And a dyno test of a manual with aftermarket exhaust removing that farty sound of the original. But is it better actually? Must hear it live!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6hZ...s#t=85.2588369


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