Test drove a Ti--not so impressed. What am I missing? - Page 5 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #61 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-11-2017, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Del View Post
"also nowhere near as directly connected to the driver as even a five year old car was. The future is now"

Well, lol, sometimes the future sucks. I cannot be forced into liking some of it.
True but it isn't rational to criticize a car for being better than older cars because it is more comfortable, quieter, steers corners and brakes better and is both more powerful and fuel efficient.

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post #62 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-11-2017, 08:03 PM
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Not criticizing it as much as saying that as designed and presented, it doesn't fit my desires I personally would like to see in an Alfa I would want to buy and enjoy in my way. Plus, it has a couple of what I personally think are drawbacks in enjoyable functionality. Thus, I choose not to buy it.

If I wanted a quieter, more comfortable car I'd buy a Buick. If I wanted a car which steers, corners, and brakes better and is more powerful, maybe I'd buy a Corvette. As for fuel efficiency, well yes, would be nice if gas was $6/gal, but it's not, so not important to me, esp because so many are offsetting what little driving I do in my time left by buying hybrids and full electrics.

It's no biggie. It's just not the Alfa for me, after all these years of Alfa ownership. At least, not yet.
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62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #63 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-11-2017, 08:31 PM
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I have driven our Giulia QV back to back with my '67 Super and my '89 Milano Verde. It's an "Apples to Bowling Balls" comparison but so what.

If you tune out the electronics and just drive, in RACE/Manual mode with all systems switched off, I think it compares very well in driver involvment. I know that's a subjective statement but the chassis really is that good. Performance is of course worlds better, but there is a lot of driver feedback at the limit and it can make you work for it like any good performance car should. The thought processes are the same - "How late can I brake for this corner? Should I be in 2nd or 3rd? How much throttle do I need to balance the car after the apex?" It can feel like a very analog car when pushed.
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post #64 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-11-2017, 08:45 PM
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If you are racing at the limit at a track, yes, I'm sure, but not for ordinary sporty semi-legal driving. In those terms, I would not be asking anything more than what I can enjoy in my cars I have now, having the desire to feel the actions of the car, but not drawing undue attention to the guys with the badges, lol, or just plain doing something stupid, endangering anyone.

However, by all means, if you have the money for a car like that, go for it.

Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

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post #65 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-12-2017, 08:12 AM
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The magic of these new generation rwd/awd cars is how well they do both: exciting but comfortable street driving and competent at racing speeds also. The Maserati Quattroporte/BMW M5 idea but in one car.

Double wishbone front suspension, multi link rear suspension, double pot disc brakes, nearly 300 HP and an 8 spd transmission. This is a difficult car to criticize.

You get 80% of the QF in the TI.

There really is nothing to complain about. This is THE car Alfa has needed to build since it stopped building the Milano/75.
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post #66 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-29-2017, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by JMody View Post
Now, how's this for modern software? If I combine three conditions at the intersection 200 m from my garage --
Advanced/Efficient Mode + light brakes to stop on a gentle rise at said intersection + quick back on the gas --
the flippin' Stop-Start has a complete failure, shuts off the engine and declares FAILURE. Push P, push STOP on steering wheel, push again as START, and it drives fine. It did that three times to me. It won't in Normal or Dynamic mode, AND after doing it three times, Stop-Start has never reared its ugly head again. So maybe that's a feature ... ?
There is an override to shut that feature off. I think sales people (if not the factory) have heard the feedback... Before I took a Ti out for an aggressive test drive early this summer, my salesman shut the Stop-Start feature off. That was way back in June.

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post #67 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-29-2017, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Del View Post
"also nowhere near as directly connected to the driver as even a five year old car was. The future is now"

Well, lol, sometimes the future sucks. I cannot be forced into liking some of it.
The future is not so bad. The Start-Stop feature can be disabled, as can many other features of a modern car.. so whatever you don't like, you just shut off for the rest of its life.

Thank you guys for posting and discussing the transmission logic information regarding the Giulia's ZF. The Giulia w/Sport Package I test drove early this summer was uncanny in D-mode Automatic... the control logic chose the right gear, every time, when braking at the entry then pushing it through a hard turn ... every time I mashed the throttle at mid-turn, the ZF had the gear ready, no downshift - just strong, hard acceleration.

Ciao, - Art

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post #68 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-29-2017, 12:33 PM
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Stop start systems must automatically reactivate with each ignition key cycle if they are used for fuel economy measurements. So, no, you can't always turn them off for the life of the car. Like TPMS stop start is usually hard wired into the car's computers.

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post #69 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-29-2017, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
Stop start systems must automatically reactivate with each ignition key cycle if they are used for fuel economy measurements. So, no, you can't always turn them off for the life of the car. Like TPMS stop start is usually hard wired into the car's computers.
On some cars you can turn it off permanently. It's been off on my BMW for past 3 years, I could not get used to it.

Zaza

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post #70 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-30-2017, 05:16 PM
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On some cars you can turn it off permanently. It's been off on my BMW for past 3 years, I could not get used to it.
As I say, if the manufacturer relies on stop start for fuel economy ratings then you cannot switch it off. In Europe, you cannot switch these features off.

It is very easy to get used to stop start. Just ignore it. After a short while you miss it when it isn't working as during winter for example.

The systems are very sophisticated. Once you get used to how they work you can pretty much control when the engine restarts and during parking or stop and go traffic you can generally keep the engine running.

One nifty feature in my XF Jaguar is the car shuts down completely if I select park and undo my seatbelt during a stop session. The first couple of times it happened caught me off guard but once you know to expect it the feature is very convenient. Another good feature is during more lengthy stops you can select neutral and set the handbrake or select park and then you can let off the footbrake and the engine stays off unless heat or AC or wiper action is required. Very handy.

Cyclists and pedestrians waiting with you for lights to change really appreciate this feature also, as I do when walking or biking.

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Last edited by Michael Smith; 08-30-2017 at 05:18 PM.
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post #71 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-31-2017, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
As I say, if the manufacturer relies on stop start for fuel economy ratings then you cannot switch it off. In Europe, you cannot switch these features off.

It is very easy to get used to stop start. Just ignore it. After a short while you miss it when it isn't working as during winter for example.

The systems are very sophisticated. Once you get used to how they work you can pretty much control when the engine restarts and during parking or stop and go traffic you can generally keep the engine running.

One nifty feature in my XF Jaguar is the car shuts down completely if I select park and undo my seatbelt during a stop session. The first couple of times it happened caught me off guard but once you know to expect it the feature is very convenient. Another good feature is during more lengthy stops you can select neutral and set the handbrake or select park and then you can let off the footbrake and the engine stays off unless heat or AC or wiper action is required. Very handy.

Cyclists and pedestrians waiting with you for lights to change really appreciate this feature also, as I do when walking or biking.
Hello Michael,
I'm aware of the sophisticated technology in modern cars and it's necessity in today's world, especially in congested urban areas. I on the other hand roll to work on 35 mph streets with sleep inducing 1400 rpm, complement of 8 gear ZF transmission. Engine Start Stop would activate 1-2 times, maybe 3-4 in rush hour on a short traffic light stops, so I ditched it and it's great not to have to turn it off every time I start the car. My household annual mileage is under 10000 miles and we try to be environmentally friendly at home and work, so does not that entitle me to few bad driving habits? Can't wait for a weather to cool off so I can drive my cat free 105 with hot street engine

And to stay on the topic: reason there is not a TI or even QV parked in my driveway is lack of manual trans.

Ciao

Zaza

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post #72 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-31-2017, 07:14 AM
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You will be waiting forever for a manual shift Giulia.

These ZF 8 spds are just too good.

They are locked up in second to eighth gear and can be manually shifted whenever you wish.

They deliver better acceleration and lower fuel consumption. With electronic traction control (and especially with awd) there is nothing left for the manually operated clutch to do.

Manual transmissions are a bit lighter but otherwise are obsolete.

Stop start has nothing to do with driving skill. These systems improve urban cycle fuel economy. In North America the cost of fuel does not justify the cost of adding these systems. They are still very nice to have, like automatics that drive better than manuals.....

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post #73 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-31-2017, 08:09 AM
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I know, I know...very soon cars will drive and race better than us and steering wheel will become obsolete

Zaza

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2018 Stelvio Ti Sport
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Refreshing 1750 GTV
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post #74 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-31-2017, 05:53 PM
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Take comfort in the fact that AI cannot yet drive a car nor does anyone alive today have any idea how to develop AI that can. It's not just difficult or might take some time to develop AI to the point where a car might drive itself it is currently both impossible and nobody has a clue where to look next for a way to do this.

Smart cruise control is one thing. A truly self driving car is quite a different thing altogether.

For me, since 2008, the ZF automatic (6 and now 8 spd) provides a superior driving experience to any manual gearbox, and three of my four cars have 5 or 6 spd manual shifts. In fact, I have only owned two automatics, both Jaguars and both with ZF transmissions.

The Giulia drive is not impaired in the slightest by having a ZF automatic.

And I just test drove a base model again today. The Giulia is one of the all time great cars in my opinion. Best driving sports sedan currently available in North America. Period.
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Last edited by Michael Smith; 09-01-2017 at 05:13 PM.
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post #75 of 85 (permalink) Old 09-11-2017, 05:52 PM
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I agree with Joe, with it all OFF it can feel very analog, it does still hold what Alfa is about and has always been about. Styling is another thing. I like it but I also think they could have made it a little more unique, just a little! The interior is fabulous! The 2.0L is pretty fun to drive. Reminds me of the old 164 with the Twin spark. Lighter and better handling but the Qv 952 with all the new technology (reverse thinking here), it becomes hard to tell the difference between the lighter 2.9L. (3,360 pounds) and slightly heavier 2.0L (3,456 lb) but the QV definitely has an advantage. I'd go test drive it again and turn off everything and put it through the ringer. I am sure then you might see what it has to offer. If not, then this car is not for you!


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