Test drove a Ti--not so impressed. What am I missing? - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #31 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-27-2017, 04:54 AM
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I have levels of reason here. The most rational plan is to drive my M35 for 4 more years then get a used Accord! Sensible.
Less rational me says get the Golf R, which meets all of the rational criteria but adds serious performance.
The least rational is the Alfa. But it's also the most emotional. I think I'd be happiest with it.
I dunno. That's why I'm starting this now, not intending to get serious about a purchase until after Thanksgiving.


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post #32 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-29-2017, 01:06 PM
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I have owned a Giulia 2.0 MA now for 4500 miles. I think the OP must have gone in the wrong showroom!
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post #33 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-29-2017, 09:56 PM
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The least rational is the Alfa. But it's also the most emotional. I think I'd be happiest with it.
To me a rational decision is identifying your needs, wants, and exactly how much you are willing to pay for them. So the Alfa may in fact be the most rational choice (for you).
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post #34 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-06-2017, 11:02 AM
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I bought one end of May, and so let me add some facts to the speculation. Yes, the steering wheel is a bit thin. It has swells at 9&3, so get over it.
Yes the shift paddles are big. They are also solid with a good feedback. The tranny isauto, not a double clutch setup, so it doesn't do multi-gear changes - you can't grab twice and go 4-2, you grab-pause-grab and go 4-3-2 -- my only lasting gripe.
The back seat is suited to larger people than the back door -- comfy once you're in. It's a smallish car, so don't expect too much, but a six footer will be surprised by the headroom.
The brakes do feel a tad soft, but they stop QUICKLY and do not seem to fade.
I put 80k miles on an Audi A4 -- I LOVE this car, and am not looking back.
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post #35 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-06-2017, 01:24 PM
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You all need to keep in mind that the 2017 Giulia is a saloon, a luxury saloon with performance additions. She's a Grand Touring car (GT). I took our Giulia Ti Q2 up into the canyons yesterday. She has a serious weight disadvantage. But I'm also busy comparing her to my 4C. She did well actually. She felt stable and confident. She went where I told her and that was that. I would have liked stiffer anti-roll bars, stiffer springs and stiffer dampers, but then she would not drive like a luxury saloon in the city.
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post #36 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-06-2017, 09:21 AM
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I bought one end of May, and so let me add some facts to the speculation. Yes, the steering wheel is a bit thin. It has swells at 9&3, so get over it.
Yes the shift paddles are big. They are also solid with a good feedback. The tranny isauto, not a double clutch setup, so it doesn't do multi-gear changes - you can't grab twice and go 4-2, you grab-pause-grab and go 4-3-2 -- my only lasting gripe.
The back seat is suited to larger people than the back door -- comfy once you're in. It's a smallish car, so don't expect too much, but a six footer will be surprised by the headroom.
The brakes do feel a tad soft, but they stop QUICKLY and do not seem to fade.
I put 80k miles on an Audi A4 -- I LOVE this car, and am not looking back.
Interestingly, the ZF 8 spd will skipshift but only while in automatic mode. It cannot respond to multiple paddle signals without compromising engine safety. The ECU must ensure your selected gear will not over rev the engine so cannot obey multiple consecutive shift signals. The ability of the 8spd ZF to skipshift gives rise to complaints about slow downshifting which is hardly a fair criticism once you realize why the ECU delays. It responds to the rate at which you depress the throttle as well as how far when calculating whether you just want more engine torque, to compensate for a hill for example, or you really want to put the hammer down to pass a slow moving obstacle.

Once you get used to the very sophisticated software, and give it a chance to adapt to your driving style, you will find no use for the paddles. I found this even with the ZF 6spd, itself an excellent transmission, and now with the 8spd fitted to my awd supercharged Jaguar XF I rarely find any impetus to use the paddles. The software really is that good.

As for brake performance, in common with all properly sorted road cars the brake pads are selected for peak stopping power stone cold. If you find the pads going soft on you routinely I suggest you first consider driving less aggressively! The only other cure is fitting a set of harder pads and exercising due caution when the pads are cold.

I always remember the probably apocryphal story about Fangio and his team mate at Ferrari I think it was. When asked by his team mate what the secret was as to how Fangio could be faster in the very same car on the very same day he replied: less brakes, more accelerator.

Hot brakes are a sign that you may be driving too slowly!
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Last edited by Michael Smith; 08-06-2017 at 09:29 AM.
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post #37 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-09-2017, 08:42 PM
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Now, how's this for modern software? If I combine three conditions at the intersection 200 m from my garage --
Advanced/Efficient Mode + light brakes to stop on a gentle rise at said intersection + quick back on the gas --
the flippin' Stop-Start has a complete failure, shuts off the engine and declares FAILURE. Push P, push STOP on steering wheel, push again as START, and it drives fine. It did that three times to me. It won't in Normal or Dynamic mode, AND after doing it three times, Stop-Start has never reared its ugly head again. So maybe that's a feature ... ?
OK, it's also hotter than blazes, so maybe the system is functioning and leaving me alone to keep the A/C running. But the dealer is going to hear about the failure/shut-off episodes.
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post #38 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 06:24 AM
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It does sound like you have a fault. However, stop start systems are pretty seamless nowadays. They are universal in Europe, even with manual transmissions. The systems are very sophisticated and can take a bit of getting used to. Once you do they are very pleasant to live with.

My Jaguar is so equipped. One can control the stop start operation quite easily with the brake pedal. In fact you may be inadvertently doing so with the sequence you are describing. The system is usually programmed to delay for a second to be sure the driver has really stopped. If you stop only briefly and happen to lift off the brake and hit the gas just a little too quickly after have stopped you could be "beating the system". It should not be happening and has never happened to me in any car I have driven or ridden using these stop start systems.

The stop start uses a separate battery and starter system from the main battery. It is indeed programmed not to operate if electrical demand or climate control system demand requires the engine to be on. On my car the system does not operate at all in winter conditions.

When it is operating I restart the engine whenever I wish while stationary simply by easing up a fraction on the brake pedal. You can stop it operating by stopping a few feet early and then creeping ever so slightly forwards in tiny increments, much as many drivers do anyway subconsciously. And so on. Take a little time to figure out the system and how it works and all will be fine. You'll like it eventually. Pedestrians and cyclists next to you might even give you a wave of appreciation that you were so polite as to switch off your engine just for them.

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Last edited by Michael Smith; 08-10-2017 at 06:32 AM.
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post #39 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 07:17 AM
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By the way Giulia has own gearbox operated logic in manual mode. The same as Ferrari uses for their gearboxes.

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post #40 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 08:10 AM
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By the way Giulia has own gearbox operated logic in manual mode. The same as Ferrari uses for their gearboxes.

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Not sure what you mean. In full manual mode the driver operates the transmission. The software then controls automated upshift at redline, if programmed in, and automatic downshift at usually 1,000 rpm or so. The software also controls the quality of the shift, usually a "harder" shift is programmed in to the paddle actuation for esthetic reasons having nothing to do with actual performance because human drivers tend to shift abruptly when they are "driving sporty" unlike actual competition drivers who never do this when racing.

When not in manual mode the ZF transmission uses the adaptive software supplied by ZF (they even make the stick shifter, BMW uses the same one as does JLR for land rovers, range rovers and the F Type Jaguar sports car, I don't think it is any good but there you go). Two programs come with the transmission "normal" and "sport". Sport is pretty much pointless in the real world since it merely hardens up the shift to no purpose and raises the engine rpm at which the transmission upshifts at part throttle, which has no effect on performance but does waste fuel. ZF also permits each manufacturer to tweak the standard software to suit the particular application but basically all ZF operate the same way. Whether you select Sport or not flatfooting the gas pedal gives you max acceleration and automatic redline shifts. Paddle shifting makes only one difference: you can start off in first gear. Any improvement in standing start acceleration you get from paddle shifting comes from this simple fact: fuel economy dictates these automatics select second gear automatically for starting off from rest. When you flatfoot the gas pedal the transmission first has to shift down into first gear which takes a nano second or so.

Ferrari doesn't use the ZF auto for any of its current range, 7 spd DCT from Getrag. Alfa sources theirs from magneti marelli I believe. Maserati does across their product range.

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Last edited by Michael Smith; 08-10-2017 at 08:23 AM.
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post #41 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 09:25 AM
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You can put gearbox in D (from P, R or N) without using the gear lever, just pull the right puddle
Also you can put in N (even while moving) by pulling both puddles together. Then by pulling the right one the gearbox automatically inserts the most suitable gear.
Holding the left blade, for instance while hard braking, the car automatically scale the gears down, all in sequence, making each change as soon as it becomes technically possible

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post #42 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 09:28 AM
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Well, sales are starting o improve, even if the reviews have been pretty brutal with regard to reliability.
Alfa Romeo Giulia Sales Jumped yet Again in July 2017

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post #43 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 12:32 PM
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You can put gearbox in D (from P, R or N) without using the gear lever, just pull the right puddle
Also you can put in N (even while moving) by pulling both puddles together. Then by pulling the right one the gearbox automatically inserts the most suitable gear.
Holding the left blade, for instance while hard braking, the car automatically scale the gears down, all in sequence, making each change as soon as it becomes technically possible

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Thanks, this is great information. I was aware that manufacturers can modify ZF base software, Jaguar and Land Rover both make their own versions. I was not aware that this Giulia had gone so far beyond what has been achieved by other makers so far. Our salesman did not mention any of this.

Be aware that base and Lux models do not come with paddles. You must spec Sport for that, at least up here in Canada.

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post #44 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 12:35 PM
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Well, sales are starting o improve, even if the reviews have been pretty brutal with regard to reliability.
Alfa Romeo Giulia Sales Jumped yet Again in July 2017
Up here in Canada our dealer says fca is anxious to push units out onto the road into private hands ASAP. Best advertizing they could buy. Now might be a golden oppprtunity to make the leap of faith and make a deal.

As for reliability issues I have not seen reports of actual mechanical failure. Almost all faults seem to be software glitches or switch and sensor problems. These can be lived with until a repair can be devised.

Then once a patch can be flashed into your cars computers all will be well. They certainly seem well made when looked at carefully in the showroom. Very, very stylish cars inside and out and they drive like a dream.

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post #45 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 02:24 PM
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Coming back to ZF. Just take a look at gear ratios of Giulia gearbox. First 5 gears are very short, they allow to actively drive a car up to 150 km/h. 6, 7 and 8 gears are much longer. Unlike the BMW maximum speed is reached at 7th speed and 8th speed is overdrive. BMW 3 reaches maximum at 8th speed. So, Alfa implemented own philosophy not only in operative logic but and gear ratios as well.

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