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post #271 of 360 (permalink) Old 12-16-2017, 04:27 PM
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So, generally speaking to reduce CO and CO2 cars should consume less fuel. To reduce NOx cars should be cleaner.
Depends who your consider the enemy CO and CO2 or NOx

And this is the answer why American cars can be sold in EU without modification and why EU cars must have additional filters and reprogrammed ECU, and have less power

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post #272 of 360 (permalink) Old 12-16-2017, 04:32 PM
Del
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"Everyone understands that it's a populism"

Uh huh. Time will tell, won't it.

Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

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post #273 of 360 (permalink) Old 12-17-2017, 07:15 AM
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At the same time, Europe in general is planning on phasing out diesel powered cars, as they just won't meet the new climate change standards they are contemplating, and then later, no more production of gas powered cars as well.
Diesel power is under attack in densely populated European cities because of NOx emissions. Both gasoline and diesel power are under attack because of particulate emissions (the reason diesel power is very expensive to build to meet US standards). 2040 restrictions are about climate change.

None of these perceived problems is supported by any properly conducted science. Ambient air is now clean enough for both humans and other members of the biosphere in rich countries. To think otherwise ignores the fact that Mother Nature continually fills the air with "pollutants" with silica dust being my current favourite bogie man health risk. Evolution has equipped us to easily survive current "pollution" levels as confirmed by actuarial evidence of human longevity in those same rich countries (remarkably this longevity is already in evidence despite the oldest cohort having been raised as children in heavily polluted environments pre-dating the cleanup activities). Money expended exploring and remedying so called climate change would be better spent ameliorating the remaining toxically polluted environments in places like China and some parts of Africa. Unforgivably, much of this results from rich countries in effect exporting their emissions to those places. One particularly egregious example of this is the de facto export of toxic waste and toxic workplace hazards to places like Congo in pursuit of electric powered cars. But I digress.

Stopping combustion of fossil fueis on the other hand will be catastrophic for the human race. It will never happen until a replacement power source can be economically exploited. The only technology we know about today that can do this is nuclear power electric generation. Not only do we know enough about this today we have the economically affordable capability to start doing this today. But of course we are doing the opposite.

Even if we do switch from coal or natural gas to nuclear for power we will still need to burn gasoline, diesel and jet fuel for transportation. We will need to do so until a significant breakthrough is made in battery energy density in the order of 10 times higher. We really have no idea today how we might do that. Until we do using only electric power for transport just isn't going to work.

So, the end of production of manual shift cars really does seem to be an insignificant problem by comparison.
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Last edited by Michael Smith; 12-17-2017 at 07:31 AM.
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post #274 of 360 (permalink) Old 12-17-2017, 12:09 PM
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You are missing the point, in that scientists in many fields of research are worried about the very abnormal temperature rise rate, much faster than research determined happened in the past, after all the usual natural causes for such temperature changes have pretty much been researched and accounted for except for Mankind's increasingly significant input. One of the effects of this is the very rapid melting of ice near both poles, even faster than various carefully and scientifically constructed "worst case" models have predicted. Many carefully researched/recorded examples around the world reflect the results of this thus far.

Of course, time will tell, as usual, but at least I try not to blithely or even scornfully toss out even the remote possibilities as some do (are they afraid of losing money, perhaps, or have a Proxmire complex? Do they not buy car, house, and health insurance for the remote chance something bad might happen?).


"So, the end of production of manual shift cars really does seem to be an insignificant problem by comparison"

Actually, you got that right, lol.

I now no longer care about the Giulia and it's lack of a manual transmission. Only time will tell, of course as usual, if the car will ever become more attractive to us.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 12-17-2017 at 12:33 PM.
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post #275 of 360 (permalink) Old 12-17-2017, 12:36 PM
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I am well aware of the point. I see no convincing evidence of trouble ahead. I wouldn't be buying insurance against CAGW effects, let me say.

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post #276 of 360 (permalink) Old 12-17-2017, 12:51 PM
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Nobody said you should, nor need you. Indeed, no one responsible has advocated that for the vast majority of humanity, but that doesn't mean something wouldn't be happening affecting the future of distant offspring of many people, to say nothing of various flora and fauna around the world (some of which are affected now). It's the idea that research should continue to determine what the form of worldwide insurance could or should be to reduce the effects of Mankind's influence on the Earth's environmental systems.

Some island nation and northern village residents are already even beginning to suffer in their lifetimes (are they canaries, so to speak). Mankind should be responsible enough, though, to consider the future, rather than "kick the can" downstream through denial. The Earth's environmental systems do contain certain "tipping points" of significant economic and environmental change.
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Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 12-19-2017 at 10:23 AM.
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post #277 of 360 (permalink) Old 12-17-2017, 03:57 PM
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There's a bunch of tiny new satellites launching which should give us the answer fairly soon about the OLR v TSI difference. I predict close to zero.

TSI is also being reconsidered to include the possible effects of the energy of different wavelength components. The effects of the magnetic fields of the sun and the earth on GCR reaching our atmosphere are receiving more attention.

There is no doubt at all that the GCM currently relied on by climate scientists are not sufficiently accurate to be of any use. There is considerable doubt that the overall temperature of earth is changing very much if at all at the moment and for the last 30 years or so.

I do think we can "kick this can down the road" with minimal risk. There really is no evidence that humans are having any effect on the earth's temperature. There's plenty of speculation but insufficient observation.

No doubt you've considered all the evidence and hold a different view. I happen to think we are very close to confirming that humans have no material effect on overall climate trends for our home planet. Five more years should yield the desired answer. We need do nothing until then.
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post #278 of 360 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 09:32 AM
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Since we've gone down this road, Professor Eastbrook in a fascinating talk:

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post #279 of 360 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 10:02 AM
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There have been a few Threads on the political issue called CAGW. Comments, either way, should be in those, not in this one complaining about the lack of a manual gearbox.

Bob, BSc. Geophysics

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post #280 of 360 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 03:33 PM
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Agreed.

It seems like the manual automatic topic has also been fully covered.

Anything new?

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post #281 of 360 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 06:22 PM
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Agreed. You can lead them to water but...

Wife with PHD in Geo/Space Physics says to stop trying to spit into the wind. Time will tell, of course, but not in my lifetime, lol.

Been looking at Audi A6 station wagon today. Also looked at Caddie ATS with manual. Tired of new Alfa.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

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post #282 of 360 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 07:30 PM
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Dallara Stradale. 95% of orders are for the automatic gearbox
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post #283 of 360 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 08:05 AM
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Dallara Stradale. 95% of orders are for the automatic gearbox
Add back in the proportion of that 5% that will change their minds when the manual isn't available, as I did when buying my first automatic Jaguar, and the loss of potential sales becomes minuscule in reality.

Deduct the costs saved by not having to keep a parts inventory or servicing facility for manual equipped cars from total costs incurred. If you can avoid designing a manual shift car from the outset further cost savings are available.

When you drive the automatic and realize 99% of the driving pleasure remains and then you realize why manual shift cars are not going to be built for much longer, by any manufacturer.

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post #284 of 360 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 09:02 AM
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YES

My DD is a 08 BMW 535 xi Touring Wagon. Bought in April 2010 and immediately put in the DINAN Stage 2. Goes from 300 HP to 375. 300 torque to 415. And the BMW warranty covered it!

Six-speed auto with a "Sport" mode, or whatever they call it. On a few track days I found it best in "Sport" and in coming out of any corner it would be in the right gear.

One day was wet and the AWD feature was good. Especially compared to the mid-engined Ferraris which suffered from either wheel-spin, or TC.

It's been reliable. One change of spark plugs and belts. The plastic coolant tank failed 5 years ago.

I'm using that it is coming up ten years old, to rationalize the new Giulia.

Base model at about 3300 lbs. BMW Wagon at 4300.


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post #285 of 360 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
Add back in the proportion of that 5% that will change their minds when the manual isn't available, as I did when buying my first automatic Jaguar, and the loss of potential sales becomes minuscule in reality.

Deduct the costs saved by not having to keep a parts inventory or servicing facility for manual equipped cars from total costs incurred. If you can avoid designing a manual shift car from the outset further cost savings are available.

When you drive the automatic and realize 99% of the driving pleasure remains and then you realize why manual shift cars are not going to be built for much longer, by any manufacturer.
I can't be the only one who will not consider purchasing a vehicle for myself without three pedals. I'd put the driving pleasure reduction factor in the 30% range, which is an unacceptable tradeoff for me (and yes, I have driven some of the very best flappy paddle units including the ZF8, BMWs DCT, and Audi's DSG). If I ever do purchase a vehicle with only two pedals, it will not have a transmission at all. The always-available torque of an electric motor provides sufficient balm that I would consider it in a daily driver.
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