Bleeding the clutch: Am I doing it wrong or is my clutch slave cylinder bad? - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-24-2016, 09:13 PM
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I've never had a clutch master cylinder fail on any of my Alfas, but I have to replace a slave at least once every few years on all of them. Must be the dirt/muck down there that gets into stuff.

I'm also a fan of gravity bleeding. Just put a line on the slave, make an inverted U, put the other end in a bottle, them fill the resevoir and wait. The fluid will make it's way down and the bubbles up and eventually fluid comes out.

Good luck, bleeding clutches can be frustrating.

Ian Lomax - Current: 1973 Berlina, 1987 Milano Platinum "racecar"
Past: 71, 74 Spiders, 2x 74 Berlina, 74 GTV, 76 Alfetta GT, 88 Milano 3.0, 164LS
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post #17 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-24-2016, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gprocket View Post
Umm, we're talking clutch not brakes...
OOPs. Yes. Correct. My error. Never mind.

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post #18 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-06-2016, 05:10 PM Thread Starter
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Latest update, I tried rotating the slave cylinder. At first I tried sticking a screwdriver between the bleed valve and the hose, until I broke the bleed valve. Replacing the bleed valve will require removing the slave cylinder from the car, though from what I'm reading, it seems I might as well replace the slave cylinder since there's probably a reason it was drained. I did discover there is a flattened area on the rear of the cylinder to rotate it with a wrench. I tried to do so and was unsuccessful, likely because I'm reaching under the car from the side rather than being under it.

When someone depresses the clutch pedal, fluid is pushed through the hose and I can see it come out a hose attached to the bleed valve on the slave cylinder. When I got the car there was no fluid in the reservoir. I suppose there is a good chance the previous owner was planning on replacing the slave cylinder. So, what tool do I need to remove the retaining rings? I've heard it described but no posts I've read about this give a name for this tool.

Also, any suggestions on jack stands that would be good for the job? Since this is a light car I imagine four jack stands from the hardware store will suffice?

Edit: I'm planning to buy a replacement from Centreline (I'd post a link but my post count is too low), should I try to rebuild my slave first or is there no hope for it?

Last edited by jarred; 03-06-2016 at 05:13 PM.
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post #19 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-06-2016, 05:22 PM
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If you have never rebuilt a slave cylinder just buy a new one. Save your old one to rebuild when the new one fails in a few years. 5-10 years seems to be the lifespan.

As for jack stands, I have both smaller 3 ton and larger 6 ton stands. The larger ones are nice for getting the car up in the air really high with more stability. The smaller ones are great for just getting it up enough to take off a wheel. A pair of smaller stands will get the front end up high enough if needed. Just make sure you give the car a good shove once it's up in the air to test the stability.

As for the right tool, you want a set of snap ring pliers like this:

Snap Ring Pliers with Interchangeable Heads

They are a pain to use even on a good day. Soak the snap rings and the body of the slave with a little PB Blaster before attempting this job and clean it well so it will slide out. The rust and gunk down there tend to hang up the rings and also keep the body from sliding out of the transmission.

Replace the hose while it's off as well.

Not a hard job, but not fun. Good luck!
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Ian Lomax - Current: 1973 Berlina, 1987 Milano Platinum "racecar"
Past: 71, 74 Spiders, 2x 74 Berlina, 74 GTV, 76 Alfetta GT, 88 Milano 3.0, 164LS
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post #20 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-02-2016, 11:01 AM Thread Starter
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Alright, I've got the snap rings loose. They aren't coming totally off but once I remove the hose it will be fine. My newest problem is getting the actual slave out. I had WD-40 rust remover at first, then I tried PB blaster. I've wiped down the slave and applied PB blaster every other day for the past week and still it won't budge. Do you have any other suggestions for removing it? I've used a wrench on the flat side of the slave and hit it with a hammer trying to knock it loose and neither method is working.
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post #21 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-02-2016, 12:28 PM
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It should spin easily. Sounds like you have a lot of corrosion. You could try heating the aluminum housing with a propane torch then try to twist it with a 27 mm or 1 1/16" wrench on the flats.
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post #22 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-04-2016, 07:28 PM
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What Ed said - try heat. Expansion/contraction of the slave or housing should break things loose.

bs
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post #23 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-17-2016, 11:44 AM Thread Starter
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Several updates... making progress, not quite there yet. I invested in a propane torch and heated up the clutch cylinder housing. Then I tapped it with a hammer for a while taking breaks every ten or so minutes to apply PB. I had to drill a few holes in the old slave cylinder to weaken it as well. After about three hours I was able to completely remove the slave cylinder and the old rubber hose! Picture attached as proof of success.

I installed the new clutch slave and properly bled it. It does now function as expected, i.e. pressing the clutch pedal in the car causes the clutch slave to push and move the lever coming out of the transmission housing. However it does not push far enough - if I try to slowly put it in gear I hear a grinding sound indicating the clutch plate are not separated enough. Is it possible that some air still exists in the line and I should bleed the system some more? Any other way to get the slave to push farther?
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post #24 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-17-2016, 01:58 PM
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Have you adjusted the clevis on the back of the clutch MC push rod so that the rear of the pin hole (that secures the pedal arm) is 134mm from the MC housing flange?
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post #25 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-17-2016, 03:43 PM
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When properly bled and the pushrod at the master set to the specified length, the actuating rod at the slave should move ~ 11-12 mm. If noticeably less then see the first sentence.



If the slave moves the specified amount then it is likely the difficulty you describe is 'normal'. Normal in that there is no synchro for the shift from neutral into first or reverse. The way to do it crunch-free is to move the shift lever partially into another gear (say 2nd or 3rd) and use that gear's synchro to stop the spinning gears. Then move the shift lever into 1st or R.

- - Eric
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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-17-2016, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
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Norseman50: I'm not sure I understand - are you saying the lever coming out of the transmission is adjustable? I attached a picture of what my transmission housing and clutch look like.

ghnl: I watched it when testing to make sure it worked, and it appeared to move about a centimeter. I'll have to get a friend to push the clutch pedal while I measure it under the car to make sure. I decided to try again with your suggestion about pushing partially into second first. I tried again and pressed fairly firmly, the noise was even louder and I decided not to risk stripping the gears too much. With the clutch pedal pressed firmly, shouldn't I be able to put the car into gear while it's sitting and not have it move anywhere?
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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-17-2016, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarred View Post
Norseman50: I'm not sure I understand - are you saying the lever coming out of the transmission is adjustable?
The pushrod at the master cylinder is the adjustable one. But it is not meant to be adjusted - rather set to the specified length and leave it alone.


Quote:
With the clutch pedal pressed firmly, shouldn't I be able to put the car into gear while it's sitting and not have it move anywhere?
Yes. How long has it been since the car was driven? If it has sat unused for a long time it is possible the clutch disc has become stuck due to corrosion. If that is the case it'd be impossible to shift into any gear with the engine running.

If the slave action is good (the 11-12mm movement) then I'd worry about the disc being stuck. Get back to us for info about how to free it up.

- - Eric
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post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-19-2016, 08:55 PM Thread Starter
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I took a video under the car - the clutch cylinder only pushes about 3mm. Video here - https: vimeo.com/163500288 What could be the cause of this?

The car sat for at least 6 years. My best guess is 21 years actually, and I have yet to drive it (hopefully soon!). It may not be a bad idea to consider that as another possibility. If the clutch disc is stuck could this prevent the cylinder from pushing all the way?

~Jarred
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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-20-2016, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
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I haven't been able to push it even a little bit by hand when I've tried - is it supposed to be easy to press?

~Jarred
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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-20-2016, 01:16 PM
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You'd need some leverage to move the clutch fork - a 2' long pry bar for example.

My guess is there is still air in the system.

- - Eric
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- -~ 1981 GTV-6 ~
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