First Gear Fix - Page 4 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #46 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-12-2008, 01:25 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Joe Papa Sr View Post
...IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS, to do this mod, you MUST scrap (remove, and discard) the 2 bits, AND the one arc, AND the synchro ring, then replace with a set from other than 1st gear (both bits, both arcs, and new ring for that gear)?.
Not quite. The syncro rings get replaced for wear issues - they rub on the inside of the bronze shift slider rings. To do this mod, all you need to change in the first gear is replace the upper hook like segment with one from a higher gear (that has no hook), and add a second arc segment. The other arc stays, and the lower bit stays.

All the syncro rings are the same on all five gears; the lower bit is the same; the arcs are the same (except that 1st has only one); the upper bit is different only on 1st and must be replaced. Just make all five gears look alike.

There are wear issues with the dog teeth, the syncro rings, the bearings, the shift sliders. I've had alignment problems with the reverse idler gear - the shift fork arm is long and a bit flimsy if you try backing uphill in San Francisco (that's how mine got bent a bit). Shims and spacers that fit the front input shaft to the main output shaft are critical as described in the Alfa transmission handbook.

Robert
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post #47 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-12-2008, 02:19 PM
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You keep shedding light on this subject, Rob. My hat's off to you, and you're continued patience while I digest/understand getting ready for the big day.

Yeah, I will look at the fork surface where it rubs against the sleeves (the ones in my spare trans on my bench are worn, from a car with 98,000m), and I will eventually post some pics of them for comments. Of course, I will probably prefer to keep the forks from the car's trans, which only has 60,000m on it.

Now bearings, if they spin nicely/smooth/no noise, tight, I assume they are good? Thats what I understand.

Joe
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post #48 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-12-2008, 02:28 PM
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Oh, another thing....regarding sealing that trans from notorious leaks. One thing I cant tolerate is oil leaks , and this will be my chance to get it done right. I have strong suspicion that the stock oil seals (both front/back) are not made right. Why? cuz 3 yrs ago, when I had the trans out for a clutch redo, I figured Id pop in a new front seal. USELESS!! Leaked within 6 months. Typical alfa substandard engineering!!!!!!!!!

Man, I got a mind to look for better seals than what is sold in the catalogs, seals with double "lips"(?) Also, Type II mil spec aircraft engine gasket sealant on the milled surfaces. Anyone have luck with different seals on this trans?
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post #49 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 04:14 PM
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Oh, another thing....regarding sealing that trans from notorious leaks. One thing I cant tolerate is oil leaks , and this will be my chance to get it done right. I have strong suspicion that the stock oil seals (both front/back) are not made right. Why? cuz 3 yrs ago, when I had the trans out for a clutch redo, I figured Id pop in a new front seal. USELESS!! Leaked within 6 months. Typical alfa substandard engineering!!!!!!!!!

Man, I got a mind to look for better seals than what is sold in the catalogs, seals with double "lips"(?) Also, Type II mil spec aircraft engine gasket sealant on the milled surfaces. Anyone have luck with different seals on this trans?
I know the trans forum is basically a quiet place, but I figured a week should smoke out some owners with leaks, no?
Interesting.....guess Im the only one who has a leaky trans and is unhappy about it...LOL!! Hey, Ill figure it out........
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post #50 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 04:17 PM
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I can just spec out the seal and look for one with a double lip..........
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post #51 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 05:19 PM Thread Starter
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The seals work fine generally. Be sure the seal surface on the input shaft is smooth, and it is really important that the front bearing is good. The input shaft - output shaft spacing is critical to the health of this bearing, so the shims must be right on.

Also, any misalignment of the clutch, or out-of-balance will damage the front seal.

But also be sure to get the shift rod o-rings right!

THe output seal rides on the yoke. This should be polished carefully too.

The hardest part of sealing the tx is the split case. I've used blue silicone successfully. Post a q in the transmission thread to see what others do.

Robert

Last edited by 60sRacer; 02-20-2008 at 05:59 PM.
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post #52 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 05:53 PM
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use what the *** cars use that never leak. somthing like yamabond

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post #53 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 06:11 PM
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I put two input shaft seals on my last transmission. The first one leaked like a seive. So far the second one is holding. A double lipped seal would be a good one to have. My understanding is that the seal gets scratched going over the ribbed surface of the input shaft. I have always liberally greased the shaft before putting the seal over it just to make sure the seal slides easily. The 1st gear modification is going in on the next transmission, as it is an easy thing to accomplish. Should be interesting to note how easy the gear will engage when coming to a stop. I use Permatex Aviation on my transmission surfaces and they never leak.
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post #54 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 06:40 PM
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Thanks, guys. Interesting, as always, the new info out there.

Hey Robert, how come i did not see any shift rod o rings on that trans I have on my bench (you know, the one you've been coaching me on) . I took it apart, and split the case, and no o rings visible.......3 shift rods, so 3 o rings, right??

Yeah, aviation grade is tops for me. Type 3 mil spec.......
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post #55 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 06:44 PM
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shift rods

all three gear selector rods are fully internal. The shift rod uses an oil seal.

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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post #56 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 07:28 PM
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On the split case machined sealing surface, no matter what actual goop you use, (and yes, it's yamabond or ultra gray that's used on the Asian imports), you can get more effect and a lot more peace of mind if you run a silk thread along the machined surface to the inside of any bolt/stud holes.

The thread, and it must be silk, compresses when things are tightened down and works like a sort of micro-gasket or very thin o-ring that doesn't need a groove. (works great for 2 & 4 stroke motorcycle engine cases and split gearcases)




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post #57 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 07:36 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alfar7 View Post
all three gear selector rods are fully internal. The shift rod uses an oil seal.
AFAIR, on some of the earlier transmissions - like my 67 duetto, the reverse switch is mounted inside the bell housing. The three shift rods extend thru the front of the TX (one pushes the reverse light switch), with o-rings inside the case to seal them. Later tx's have shorter shift rods that do not go into the bell housing, and the reverse light switch is elsewhere.

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post #58 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 07:43 PM
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<-- raises hand to say that his reverse light switch is in the front of the transmission, inside the bell housing.




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post #59 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocedoc View Post
I put two input shaft seals on my last transmission. The first one leaked like a seive. So far the second one is holding. A double lipped seal would be a good one to have. My understanding is that the seal gets scratched going over the ribbed surface of the input shaft. I have always liberally greased the shaft before putting the seal over it just to make sure the seal slides easily. The 1st gear modification is going in on the next transmission, as it is an easy thing to accomplish. Should be interesting to note how easy the gear will engage when coming to a stop. I use Permatex Aviation on my transmission surfaces and they never leak.
Alfa has/had a tool to protect the seal from the input shaft. Essentially a thin wall piece of tube. I made one out of Aluminum.

FWIW

Ken

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post #60 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 11:56 AM
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Great idea! Thank you.
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