First Gear Fix - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #31 of 151 (permalink) Old 09-13-2006, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sRacer
I rebuilt the 1st gear to be like the others almost 40 years ago. I have had no problems since, even with a rebuild of the bearings and outer syncro rings in between. And I didn't even replace the 1st dog gear, so I've been driving with the extra notch. No problems at all.

Really glad to see others trying this!!

Robert
Robert -- thanks for sharing this idea. This is yet another example of how great the Alfa BB community has become.

Bill / 1977 Alfa Romeo 4C2000 / 2012 BMW S1000RR / 1975 BMW R90/6
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post #32 of 151 (permalink) Old 09-15-2006, 12:08 AM
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60's racer...

if you have the time, could you send( e-mail) me the mesurments of the dog gear? or could you send an old one down here. i have a freind at porshe , and i can compare the gears. thanks.
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post #33 of 151 (permalink) Old 09-15-2006, 12:11 AM
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one more thing, sorry,

so from what my little mine can understand, you can put all the peices from a 2-5 gear schyro's into a 1 st gear?thanks.. i was looking at the photos and that the idea i got. i also printed the photos, so i could bring them to work so i could studie them.
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post #34 of 151 (permalink) Old 09-15-2006, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bianchi1
so from what my little mine can understand, you can put all the peices from a 2-5 gear schyro's into a 1 st gear?thanks.. i was looking at the photos and that the idea i got. i also printed the photos, so i could bring them to work so i could studie them.
Yes, that's right, except that you have a choice to retain the original 1st gear dog ring if you want, or switch to a 2nd through 5th style dog ring.

Otherwise, the synchro ring, sectors and straps must all be either 1st gear style or 2nd to 5th gear style. None of these pieces can be interchanged.

Bill / 1977 Alfa Romeo 4C2000 / 2012 BMW S1000RR / 1975 BMW R90/6
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post #35 of 151 (permalink) Old 09-15-2006, 07:55 PM
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This post has been really interesting, and when it comes to building the gearbox will certainly be trying this out if I can find the parts

Now for a really dumb question I have a trans axel out of an alfa 90 (same as a Milao/75) that is in good condition are any parts compatible with the 105 type gearboxes (I know the syncro rings are the same but not sure about the gears and dogs etc)

PS as I love to have information handy when I do the work so I have cut and paste the great information/photo's from Bill77 ( and the other intresting tech information in this thread) into one document and can send it to any others who like to work this way

1973 GTV
2007 Chevrolet Caprice SS (6 litre V8)
Previous Cars-82 GTV-84 90-82 Sud
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post #36 of 151 (permalink) Old 09-18-2006, 01:26 PM
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The possibility of doing some weight reduction of the gearwork seems to be a logical step in rebuilding the ALFA gearbox while your doing syncros over the winter months. I started studing this last year a bit and had a good conversation with Mike Valant over the phone about how he did his. That was my first exposure to removing the dog rings on the gears.
If you guys are not familiar with Mike, he is a serious Alfisti (might post here sometimes) and is the son of long time ALFA Racer Gary Valant. Mike has a great web page of ALFA related stuff. I hope you'all take a look.
--- http://engr.smu.edu/rcam/cpm3v/alfamain2.htm---

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post #37 of 151 (permalink) Old 09-20-2006, 04:09 PM
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Here's a tip: Save those old, worn out synchro sleeves and dog gears to use at the shop press. I ground off the sharp teeth and used these pieces for pressing out the transmission mount. The sleeve is handy for backing up the transmission case, while the dog gear is handy for pressing the new trans mount into place. I should have taken some photos, but you can use your imagination from here.

Bill / 1977 Alfa Romeo 4C2000 / 2012 BMW S1000RR / 1975 BMW R90/6
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post #38 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-11-2008, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kengta View Post
Agree and,

I've said this before, Porsche Synchro Hubs (dog gears) are similar looking, but not the same, to the Alfa part and are available aftermarket.

An entrepreneur needs to make the necessary contact and investigate remanufacture.

FWIW

Ken
Speaking of porsche in this 1st gear syrchro fix thread, one porsche trans site warned not to add the second bit (check strap-alfas term) to that 1st gear as this would prohibit one from shifting into 1st from a standstill. to myself, contemplating the 1st gear fix is a little ...a lot frightening. Can anyone shed light on this ? Pls tell me my fear is not warranted.
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post #39 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-11-2008, 08:22 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Joe Papa Sr View Post
Speaking of porsche in this 1st gear syrchro fix thread, one porsche trans site warned not to add the second bit (check strap-alfas term) to that 1st gear as this would prohibit one from shifting into 1st from a standstill.
Well I started this thread. I made this mod to my Duetto in 1970, and have been driving it ever since. No problems shifting - and if you really understand how the syncros and these little straps work, it would be clear that the above comment is nonsense.

All you do is provide a means to accelerate the first gear to match the rotation of the shafts before the dog teeth engage. There is an increase in the radial force on the moly syncro ring, but THAT IS WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO! You get a slight resistance to engaging, but you give up the GRRRRUNCH of the dog teeth grating on the bronze syncro sleeve's teeth.

It works fine! Over 150,000 miles of "works fine"!.

Robert
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post #40 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-12-2008, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 60sRacer View Post
Well I started this thread. I made this mod to my Duetto in 1970, and have been driving it ever since. No problems shifting - and if you really understand how the syncros and these little straps work, it would be clear that the above comment is nonsense.

All you do is provide a means to accelerate the first gear to match the rotation of the shafts before the dog teeth engage. There is an increase in the radial force on the moly syncro ring, but THAT IS WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO! You get a slight resistance to engaging, but you give up the GRRRRUNCH of the dog teeth grating on the bronze syncro sleeve's teeth.

It works fine! Over 150,000 miles of "works fine"!.

Robert
Whew (wiping perspiration from forehead with back of hand)!! I feel much better now, Robert. It was on the web regarding rebuilding Porsche gears.....probably misinformation like you said.

I've been studying intensely your instructions on the fix, and I was either gonna PM you., but since we're right here, here it goes:

Once I open up my 1st gear, can I simply just order a new arc piece from say, IAP, and add? For some reason, IAP depicts a drawing in their catalog with the parts, but does not highlight (offer) the 1sr gear arc, just the other gears. OR should I (I think you suggest this) simply buy the 2 bits and 2 arcs for say, second gear, and install those 4 pcs into 1st?

According to IAP, only ONE of the bits is different fromthe rest of the gears, not both , as it is explained in your article, unless I am not interpreting it right.

Thanks for your continued and much appreciated help. (I have an 87 spid, if that matters. I think theyre all the same)

Joe
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post #41 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-12-2008, 07:09 AM Thread Starter
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Look at the pictures posted by bill77 on page 2 of this thread. To make the first gear match the others, you need to replace the key at the top of the first gear (has a hook on one end) with one from the other gears, and add the second arc piece.

That's all. You can take these parts form an old gear - they do not wear.

As I said above, the hardest part of this is getting the big snap ring off the gear. I bent a few cheap snap-ring pliers before I found one strong enough!

Another part of this thread describes changing dog teeth. These are pressed on the gears, and are identical for all gears. Only the 1st and 2nd really wear much where the dog teeth get blunted. If you have some old gears, pull the dog ring off from a good 4 or 5 gear and use it on 1 and 2.

Robert
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post #42 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-12-2008, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 60sRacer View Post
Look at the pictures posted by bill77 on page 2 of this thread. To make the first gear match the others, you need to replace the key at the top of the first gear (has a hook on one end) with one from the other gears, and add the second arc piece.

That's all. You can take these parts form an old gear - they do not wear.

As I said above, the hardest part of this is getting the big snap ring off the gear. I bent a few cheap snap-ring pliers before I found one strong enough!

Another part of this thread describes changing dog teeth. These are pressed on the gears, and are identical for all gears. Only the 1st and 2nd really wear much where the dog teeth get blunted. If you have some old gears, pull the dog ring off from a good 4 or 5 gear and use it on 1 and 2.

Robert

OK, lets say I dont have a spare trans to scavange from......can I buy these from say, IAP, provided they are the parts (bits/arcs) from other than the 1st gear? Why cant I use the arc that is currently in the 1st gear now and add a new one? Whats the deal with the 1st gear bit being so "special"?
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post #43 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-12-2008, 07:52 AM Thread Starter
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Try Alfa Parts Exchange in Plesanton. They are in the BB suppliers thread. Lots of used parts.

Roberta
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post #44 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-12-2008, 10:00 AM
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oK. Thanks for your help.

Joe
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post #45 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-12-2008, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill77 View Post
Yes, that's right, except that you have a choice to retain the original 1st gear dog ring if you want, or switch to a 2nd through 5th style dog ring.

Otherwise, the synchro ring, sectors and straps must all be either 1st gear style or 2nd to 5th gear style. None of these pieces can be interchanged.
Ahaaaaaaa!! Found it!

So, this means IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS, to do this mod, you MUST scrap (remove, and discard) the 2 bits, AND the one arc, AND the synchro ring, then replace with a set from other than 1st gear (both bits, both arcs, and new ring for that gear)?

(As I have not yet gotten to pressing out the gears to open up insides, I cant measure things yet, thats why Im confirming up front, anticipating my process.)
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