Gearbox/Bellhousing Type? - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-29-2012, 08:08 PM Thread Starter
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Gearbox/Bellhousing Type?

Attached pics of the gearbox/bellhousing I just pulled from my 68 1750 Canadian spider. I don't have any history on it except that the guy I bought it from drove it from Canada to Birmingham Al--he has since gone to where ever good alfa guys go. Engine was bulit by Stephen & Bill and Stephen could take trannys apart and put in or swap the 2nd synchro (he did a gearbox or 2 for me many moons ago).

Question is is this an early 105 1750 gearbox or is it a 2 liter box. Can you even tell from an exterior view and if so how? Note the strange (to me) tail bushing. Has original looking oil type sticker--
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Frank Livesay Huntsville, AL
Green Alfa - 68 Canadian 1750 Spider Veloce (driver)
White Alfa - 68 Euro 1750 GTV (needs a refresh)
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post #2 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 09:25 AM
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Frank,
The bushing is aftermarket, most likely Paul Spruell's (I have one in my vintage race GTV, matched with his reinforced engine mounts. I'd be concerned that if you use with older, perhaps softened engine mounts, this stiffer bushing becomes tasked with a disproportionate amount of rotational resistance, so make sure you have fresh engine mounts as well).
I'm not smart enough to answer your basic gearbox question, but someone else out there in AlfaBB land is.
Good luck &
Happy New Year
Wil
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post #3 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 09:40 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wil Painter View Post
Frank,
The bushing is aftermarket, most likely Paul Spruell's (I have one in my vintage race GTV, matched with his reinforced engine mounts. I'd be concerned that if you use with older, perhaps softened engine mounts, this stiffer bushing becomes tasked with a disproportionate amount of rotational resistance, so make sure you have fresh engine mounts as well).
I'm not smart enough to answer your basic gearbox question, but someone else out there in AlfaBB land is.
Good luck &
Happy New Year
Wil
Thanks Wil

Would you think the Spruell engine mounts in addition to the tail bushing would be too stiff for a street roundtail? I have to buy new mounts anyway. I have been running the tail bushing for several years and notice no vibration in the drivetrain. Engine mounts look old but the fan centered in the shroud and I didn't notice any excessive movement

Frank Livesay Huntsville, AL
Green Alfa - 68 Canadian 1750 Spider Veloce (driver)
White Alfa - 68 Euro 1750 GTV (needs a refresh)
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post #4 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 09:57 AM
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Frank,
My opinion only, I'd probably go with new standard engine mounts. My Alfa hasn't been on the street since the mid-eighties, between alum race seat, stiff springs, shocks, etc, I would have absolutely no clue if the Spruell mounts are adding to the considerable NVH And in your application, I would prefer the compliance of stock mounts.
Wil

Last edited by Wil Painter; 12-30-2012 at 10:21 AM.
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post #5 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flivesay View Post
Attached pics of the gearbox/bellhousing I just pulled from my 68 1750 Canadian spider. I don't have any history on it except that the guy I bought it from drove it from Canada to Birmingham Al--he has since gone to where ever good alfa guys go. Engine was bulit by Stephen & Bill and Stephen could take trannys apart and put in or swap the 2nd synchro (he did a gearbox or 2 for me many moons ago).

Question is is this an early 105 1750 gearbox or is it a 2 liter box. Can you even tell from an exterior view and if so how? Note the strange (to me) tail bushing. Has original looking oil type sticker--
Hi Frank, I'd bet it is a 1750 box, from the exterior indications. You see the reversing switch wire coming out of the left upper of bell house indicates long shift rails that protrude through o-ringed holes into the bell house. The later 2lt boxes generally if not always had short rails that did not protrude and the switch was mounted on the rear housing tower left side although I have some rememberance of some boxes having 2 switches????

If you are going to separate the box from the engine you can put the box in 5th and rotate out put shaft 10 revs and determine the number of turns the input shaft does to eliminate the possibility of a GTj box which, if from the same era would look the same. A 1750 input shaft shaft would rotate 7.9 to 10 where as a GTj box would rotate 8.6 to 10.

You might find a casting date mark somewhere on one or more of the 4 castings.

FWIW

Ken

Ken Geiger, Toronto
1965 GTA, RHD, Stradale
ex- 1965 GTA, RHD, Corsa, Trans/Am 66-72
1964 Sprint GT, B-Sedan in 70's
1970 Giulia Super (CDN Spec)
1976 1600 GTj (Italian Spec)
1966 Harley Sprint (Aermacchi) 250
2000 Catalina 320, Hull #765 Northern Dream
2001 BMW Z3 3.0i

Last edited by kengta; 12-30-2012 at 12:11 PM.
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post #6 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
The later 2lt boxes generally if not always had short rails that did not protrude and the switch was mounted on the rear housing tower left side although I have some rememberance of some boxes having 2 switches????
My 2L boxes have had the switch mounted inside the bell housing, acting directly on the end of a shift rod. The wire came out of the same hole that is used on the earlier bell housings for the bracket mounted switch. I have also seen an additional switch mounted on the shift tower and I think that it is for something other than the back-up lights.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
76 Suzuki GT500
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A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
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post #7 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-01-2013, 12:35 PM
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The brass speedometer drive gives it up for me. I say it's a 1750 box of about 1971 vintage. Later drives are aluminum. This of course is a long rod transmission where the reverse light switch is mounted on a bracket, suspended inside the bell house. Later boxes have the short rods and the reverse light switch screws into the inside of the bell housing right in line with the reverse rod. About 1978 or so Alfa started mounting a switch on the tower near the shifter. I don't believe the switch was for the reverse though. Someone corrected me about this in another post. I've just forgotten what he told me the switch was for.
Now where did I put my cane ...........

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'82 RED GTV6 / 2.5 - '86 WHITE Spider Veloce 2000 - '71 GREEN GTV 1750
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post #8 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-01-2013, 01:15 PM
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I think the switch on the tower is the seat belt interlock.....not positive though. Regards Ian
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post #9 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-01-2013, 01:46 PM Thread Starter
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I've pulled it from the engine and discovered a few things. Unlike the transmission I intend to put back in, this one has the bracket inside the bellhousing for the reverse switch. You can see the 2 screws that attach the bracket outside the bellhousing. I believe the one I'm putting in is a 2 liter--it has the screw in reverse switch and where the bracket screws are in the early one are just undrilled pads on the new one.

I tried to count revs by myself to determine ratio but apparently can't multitask as well I use to be able too--I lose count on one end or the other . Will grab somebody to help count when they wander through the garage. It looks like it's never been apart--no sealant I can see on any components.

I have no reason to believe that this is not the 68 original tranny. When I clean it up prior to putting it on the shelf, I'll look for cast marks. All I've found so far is FGR and a sort of @ symbol in a circle inside the bell housing. The 2 liter has no symbols, an aluminum speedometer drive and screw in reverse switch. I believe that tranny came from a 75 (at least thats were I was running it).

Thanks for the reply

Frank Livesay Huntsville, AL
Green Alfa - 68 Canadian 1750 Spider Veloce (driver)
White Alfa - 68 Euro 1750 GTV (needs a refresh)
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post #10 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-01-2013, 02:21 PM Thread Starter
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Because tranny knowledgeable people have been looking (and probably already know), the rear mount is different on the 1750 than the one on the 2 liter. The bolt locates the rear tranny bushing further forward than the 2 liter. Bet it would be a bear to use the wrong mount. top mount is the 1750
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Frank Livesay Huntsville, AL
Green Alfa - 68 Canadian 1750 Spider Veloce (driver)
White Alfa - 68 Euro 1750 GTV (needs a refresh)
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post #11 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-01-2013, 02:49 PM
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Frank,
As with most things Alfa, there are more parts variations than one would think, ask the esteemed Papajam.
This mount appears the one that allowed the mounting of the underfloor dual master cylinder (longer MC body). When the 1969 Federal compliance year mandated a dual MC, to fit it with floor mounted pedals Alfa needed more fore & aft space. When Alfa went to the hanging pedals, the MC moved to the engine bay no longer interfered with the tranny bracket.
Happy New Year
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post #12 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-01-2013, 03:02 PM
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Dual MC Crossmember

Frank,
Here are some photos of how I modified/reinforced a crossmember to accommodate a dual MC, this will better illustrate the point I made in the post above. As I consulted with Papajam over parts number options, as I recall these many, many years later, there were something like eight variants, none of which had any distinguishing illustrations in the parts book Thus the fabricated solution you see here.
Wil
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post #13 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-01-2013, 03:44 PM Thread Starter
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That makes sense--my 68 has floor pedals and master--but only a single circuit. So this mount is specific for floor mouted pedals? If they didn't fit an earlier 1600 duetto (or maybe a 67 back stepnose) then they are probably pretty hard to find. Not sure how long Euro (or non-US ) spiders kept the floor pedals--through the 1750s?

Frank Livesay Huntsville, AL
Green Alfa - 68 Canadian 1750 Spider Veloce (driver)
White Alfa - 68 Euro 1750 GTV (needs a refresh)
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post #14 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-01-2013, 04:44 PM
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The change from floor to hanging pedals for the LHD Euro cars, which also saw the introduction of tandem brakes, came with the Kammtail Spider and Series 2 1750 GTV (in 1970). The RHD cars, also changing to a dual circuit brake system, retained the floor pedals and had two boosters just like the 1969 USA models.

Jim

Series 2 USA 1750 GTV (in Series 1 European clothing)
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post #15 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-01-2013, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
The brass speedometer drive gives it up for me. I say it's a 1750 box of about 1971 vintage. Later drives are aluminum
I have a gearbox from a 1970 1750 Spider and the speedometer drive is aluminum, so maybe this gearbox is earlier.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
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