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post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-01-2013, 05:10 PM
Richard Jemison
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Switches etc

The switch found on early `80s trans is a "neutral" switch which eliminates starting in any gear but "N".

Early versions of the 105 cars had motors mounted farther forward. Using the later motor mounts and trans crossmember will place the engine closer to the firewall. But the shorter front section of the driveshaft is also needed.
There is still room for more rearward movement with a few mods.
See post # 127 at:
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/moto...est-div-2.html

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-01-2013, 06:00 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfar7 View Post
The switch found on early `80s trans is a "neutral" switch which eliminates starting in any gear but "N".

Early versions of the 105 cars had motors mounted farther forward. Using the later motor mounts and trans crossmember will place the engine closer to the firewall. But the shorter front section of the driveshaft is also needed.
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Uh Oh. I will of course use the 1750 cross member but I just ordered motor mounts. I wasn't aware of it but are they different from 1750 to 2 liter?

Frank Livesay Huntsville, AL
Green Alfa - 68 Canadian 1750 Spider Veloce (driver)
White Alfa - 68 Euro 1750 GTV (needs a refresh)
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post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-02-2013, 08:16 AM
Richard Jemison
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Mounts

Seemingly not from the supplier`s catalogs, but I have had to re-slot the mounts to fit the chassis stud/hole on some applications. Easy enough to do.

Be sure the crossmember you use positions the eng/trans so that the flange on the trans when attached to the front driveshaft section correctly places the rubber "silent block" bearing (on the front shafts rear area), correctly in its "receiver" in the chassis. They are different but similar crossmembers for the Spider and GTV chassis along with front driveshaft section lengths.

That fitment done correctly (if the driveshaft is "car correct") should result in the Motor Mounts fitting....

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-02-2013, 08:49 AM
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That makes sense--my 68 has floor pedals and master--but only a single circuit. So this mount is specific for floor monted pedals? If they didn't fit an earlier 1600 duetto (or maybe a 67 back stepnose) then they are probably pretty hard to find. Not sure how long Euro (or non-US ) spiders kept the floor pedals--through the 1750s?
Hi Frank, as far as I have been able to determine, the LHD 1969 model year for 1750s, in GTV, Spider and likely Berlina had their rear trans mounts chassis brackets placed and welded on more rearward, as said above by Wil, to accommodate the under floor dual master brake cylinder that was required by the USA. The Canadian 1750 single circuit cars, while not needing it physically, got the mod anyways as did, I expect, the rest of the LHD world, (but there I am not sure).

This rearward placement of the mounting brackets required the trans mount you have. Just reuse it with which ever trans you chose. That mount is most likely unique to to this one year of LHD 1750 production.

Has the doc centre told you that the spider was sold to Alfa Romeo Canada? We had a Canadian spec series in model year 1969, 1970?, and in 1971, In 1971 we could chose Carb or FI.

Regards

Ken

Ken Geiger, Toronto
1965 GTA, RHD, Stradale
ex- 1965 GTA, RHD, Corsa, Trans/Am 66-72
1964 Sprint GT, B-Sedan in 70's
1970 Giulia Super (CDN Spec)
1976 1600 GTj (Italian Spec)
1966 Harley Sprint (Aermacchi) 250
2000 Catalina 320, Hull #765 Northern Dream
2001 BMW Z3 3.0i
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post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-02-2013, 04:24 PM Thread Starter
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I have a fax from Elvira from 2000 saying it was sold to J Steel in Ontario. Its a copied jpg. I'll put the new tranny in with the crossmember mount that was in it and make sure it lines up with the new front motor mounts. I'll compare the new mounts when they arrive with the old ones. Everything underneath fit just as I thought it should when taking it apart--no binding or stretching noticed and the drivetrain was smooth as silk--even with the Spruell tail mount. It sure seems like the engine must mount a little forward according to the rear mount. If so I guess the mount studs on the front crossmember are forward of where they are on later cars. I should jack my 68 GTV (Germany) up and look at that mount---
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Frank Livesay Huntsville, AL
Green Alfa - 68 Canadian 1750 Spider Veloce (driver)
White Alfa - 68 Euro 1750 GTV (needs a refresh)
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post #21 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-02-2013, 04:47 PM
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Frank,
I really don't know, but I would have assumed Alfa kept the engine mounts and crossmember in the engine bay in the same position, so that the shift lever opening and the rear transmission bushing would be in the same location for the various models. If I were them, I would have only moved the position of the transmission crossmember mounting points aft and used the offset piece (upper in your photograph). This way, even the driveshaft would be the same length. It would be interesting to compare the transmission crossmember mounting nut location on the transition cars, I'll bet they are aft. Anyway, that's what I would have changed to keep as many of the other parts and relationships the same.
Wil
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post #22 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-02-2013, 06:37 PM
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Garage
2 liter vibrator

fivesay- I am curious to know what your experiences will be concerning the Spruell motor mount/trans. mount combo. After fitting a twinspark motor (balanced rotating assembly) in an otherwise stock 115 chassis and drivetrain using P. Spruell's round motor mounts w/ aluminum reinforcement cups and the old style "centered" trans. mount in my street driven GTV, I initially noticed no discernible difference in NVH. After maybe 2 yrs. and 2K miles I put the car on a hoist to solve a rattle in the exhaust system vs. floorpan area, and while it was up there "in the stirrups" I installed an additional pair of poly washers on the side of the trans. to take up lateral slop at the trans. mount.
That's the only thing I did that might have caused my current persistent RPM-related vibration which seems to have occurred as a result. Not too bad- just enough to buzz the mirror, dashboard components, interior hardware, your backside- goes away at revs above 3K. ARRRRGHHHHH! It vibrates in gear, out of gear, clutch in, clutch out, and may also just be related to hardening, aging rubber in one of these components. Anyone else have any experience? You might want to get a pair of rectangular "normal" motor mounts just in case. BYF!
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post #23 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-02-2013, 07:13 PM
Richard Jemison
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Motor mounts

The full sleeve over the mounts do have a reputation for vibration enhancement.
I simply wrap the rubber section with a 1 inch band of sheet metal welded to the steel mount on the left side and a 1.5 inch band on the right side which is the "compressed" & loaded side.
Works well.
The mounts are also sectioned to move the engine backward 1 inch and down and tilted to the left for room for the induction.
Pics of them are on the car`s thread:
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/moto...-west-div.html

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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post #24 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-02-2013, 07:29 PM Thread Starter
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Cap

I was running the rear spruell tranny mount with the black rubber washers and didn't know it. The front mounts are standard looking mounts--they look old--most of the paint on the metal parts is gone but the rubber is not cracked or pooched and the fan set in the middle of the shroud. I didn't notice any NVH--especially RPM related--the drivetrain was smooth and tight. The inside mirror vibrated but the door mirror doesn't. My interior mirrors on spiders have always shook--but I always put in centerline springs and konis when rebuilding the suspension. I took everything apart to install a tranny RJ tricked out by lightening the gears and replacing the synchros. I've never driven a new 105 alfa tranny so nows my chance to see how a good 2nd synchro drives tho the tranny I was running has a pretty good second.

I haven't made up my mind on putting the spruell mount back in--RJ put a brand new rear mount in the new tranny and I would have to swap. I have ordered new regular mounts for the front. I shied away from the beefed up front spruell mounts after reading about NVH from the bb.

Cause and effect is not always obvious to me--are the poly washers pinched/tight in the mount?

Frank Livesay Huntsville, AL
Green Alfa - 68 Canadian 1750 Spider Veloce (driver)
White Alfa - 68 Euro 1750 GTV (needs a refresh)
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post #25 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-03-2013, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flivesay View Post
I have a fax from Elvira from 2000 saying it was sold to J Steel in Ontario. Its a copied jpg. I'll put the new tranny in with the crossmember mount that was in it and make sure it lines up with the new front motor mounts. I'll compare the new mounts when they arrive with the old ones. Everything underneath fit just as I thought it should when taking it apart--no binding or stretching noticed and the drivetrain was smooth as silk--even with the Spruell tail mount. It sure seems like the engine must mount a little forward according to the rear mount. If so I guess the mount studs on the front crossmember are forward of where they are on later cars. I should jack my 68 GTV (Germany) up and look at that mount---
The main thing (only thing?) that sets a LHD Canadian Spec 69 model year from the rest of the LHD world, other than USA Spec, is the English worded/measure gauges. A Toronto Ontario dealer called Younge-Steeles Motors was an Alfa Importer to Canada prior to formation of AR Canada about 1969. Was this who J Steel was connected to I wonder??

Regards

Ken

Ken Geiger, Toronto
1965 GTA, RHD, Stradale
ex- 1965 GTA, RHD, Corsa, Trans/Am 66-72
1964 Sprint GT, B-Sedan in 70's
1970 Giulia Super (CDN Spec)
1976 1600 GTj (Italian Spec)
1966 Harley Sprint (Aermacchi) 250
2000 Catalina 320, Hull #765 Northern Dream
2001 BMW Z3 3.0i

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post #26 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-03-2013, 04:01 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kengta View Post
The main thing (only thing?) that sets a LHD Canadian Spec 69 model year from the rest of the LHD world, other than USA Spec, is the English worded/measure gauges. A Toronto Ontario dealer called Younge-Steeles Motors was an Alfa Importer to Canada prior to formation of AR Canada about 1969. Was this who J Steel was connected to I wonder??

Regards

Ken
Must be the same for the 68. Oil, Water and Fuel in the spider. Olio, Aqua and Benzini in the 68 German GTV. I don't know of any other differences from the regular Euro type. I've wondered if any other English speaking country driving from the left side got English gages--or are there any (other than the US and Canada).

Steel-Steeles??

Frank Livesay Huntsville, AL
Green Alfa - 68 Canadian 1750 Spider Veloce (driver)
White Alfa - 68 Euro 1750 GTV (needs a refresh)
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post #27 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-03-2013, 04:13 PM
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Frank,
you have a Canadian & a German 1968 1750. Are the transmission crossmembers both the same as the upper in your picture post #10 above, or is one centered?
BTW, I'd go with the standard transmission mount Rj installed, as well as the new engine mounts you just purchased. Really not that hard to change out in place in the future for your Spruell mount, but I'll bet you won't.
Good Luck,
Wil
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post #28 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-03-2013, 05:24 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wil Painter View Post
Frank,
you have a Canadian & a German 1968 1750. Are the transmission crossmembers both the same as the upper in your picture post #10 above, or is one centered?
BTW, I'd go with the standard transmission mount Rj installed, as well as the new engine mounts you just purchased. Really not that hard to change out in place in the future for your Spruell mount, but I'll bet you won't.
Good Luck,
Wil
Thanks for making me look Wil. I had thought of that but I'm sorry to say that it's sitting in the shop on jackstands with a car cover and lightweight stuff piled on it and around it and a stack of teak underneath. I didn't think I would be able to see it, but I can and did. Yes--its the same. The pin is forward like the spider with the verical brace slanted forward--it's the same crossmember. I also bought another German 68 GTV for a friend this summer. He's disassembling it now. I would have kept it but the third bay in my shop is full of stuff (I blame my wife). I helped him a little last weekend. He has all the trim off, wiring etc--just lacks the engine tranny and glass--it's the most rust free 105 alfa I have ever seen (and I've had one since 1976). I plan on checking that one when I help him pull the drivetrain.

And yes--I'm leaning pretty hard toward the OEM type mounts all around

Frank Livesay Huntsville, AL
Green Alfa - 68 Canadian 1750 Spider Veloce (driver)
White Alfa - 68 Euro 1750 GTV (needs a refresh)
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post #29 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-03-2013, 06:00 PM Thread Starter
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RJ or Anyone

what do you think about the rear spruell mount with the clutch disc I ordered? KLN011 from clutchnet. It's lighter and has no springs. Do I need the stiffer rear mount or is OEM type OK? I have probably repaced 8 to 10 clutches over the years and only replaced with OEM Sachs. There was absolutley nothing wrong with the current clutch--but it certainly makes sense to me to replace the disk while its out. I'm plan on using the current Sachs pressure plate unless I find a problem when I take it apart--springs look good on the outside. I'm currently clambering around underneath cleaning stuff up (prepping for POR in places and putting in a rivnut where a bolt broke when pulling the rear tranny mount)
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Frank Livesay Huntsville, AL
Green Alfa - 68 Canadian 1750 Spider Veloce (driver)
White Alfa - 68 Euro 1750 GTV (needs a refresh)
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post #30 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 06:10 AM
Richard Jemison
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Clutch disk

See post Ed (alfaparticle) has posted on the BB re solid clutch disk. His is one of my aluminum center ones that is as light as they get.

You will not notice any difference other than cleaner releases and engagement which is a major benefit to the syncros.

most important thing you can do at the trans mount is use more of the stock rubber side washers to keep the trans centered.

Since you are building a street car avoid "reinforced" mounts anywhere other than the right side motor mount which is the heavily loaded one. A simple "half cup" mod welded to the steel "motor" part of the mount will help with compression issues under hard acceleration and prevent sagging.

I`ll make you one if you want. Are you using round or rectanglular rubber mounts?

I`ll build one and post a pic. Any one can build these things.

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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Last edited by Alfar7; 01-04-2013 at 06:12 AM.
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