Opinion on my 65 Tranny rebuild/issues please - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-22-2012, 05:07 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Atlantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: CA 91001
Posts: 139
Opinion on my 65 Tranny rebuild/issues please

Okay, I'll try to make it short:

I would like not to have the mechanic's name mentioned here (some of you know who did this work and lots of you know him) - he is a nice guy and I do not want to harm his reputation!

I had the tranny of my 1965 Giulia 1600 Ti rebuild and since have had 3 issues of which 2 are not solved.

BACKGROUND:

I had my clutch replaced. The mechanic noticed the tranny was leaking significantly (which I also noticed before) and suggested to rebuild it. I asked if it were better to replace it with a rebuilt one. He said, it would be much better if he did it, so we would know what was in it.
I had an issue with first anyhow (grinding when shifting into first from neutral after a full stop), so I said yes. I did notice that the tranny must have been rebuild not too long ago - there was fresh Curl-T at the seams.


FIRST ISSUE:
I pick up the car, drive it home on the freeway, and notice the next morning that there is still a major leak from the tranny. I took it back- they found the inner shift boot being completely ripped apart. They did not check this when they rebuild the tranny obviously. This definitely was a source of leakage before - I mentioned this, but he said it was leaking from other areas and needed the re-seal.

SECOND ISSUE:
As soon as the car warms up I noticed a significant grinding shifting into first from neutral after a full stop. I went to the mechanic, he changed the gear oil which did not help. At my second visit for this issue he told me that this is normal for this tranny. I asked if people bought the car with this flaw in 65 right off the showroom - he said yes.
I know it is a typical 5-gear Alfa issue. But from the beginning on ? I have my doubts (how about Road and Track not mentioning it in their review - and I am sure they would have!).
Now I felt completely sad for my money
Well, I got used to the tapping into second before going into first (funny enough, I do it on my VW bus now as well ).

THIRD ISSUE:
From the beginning on I noticed and mentioned a clonking sound and feel (!) sometimes when shifting. Now that I got used to the car and drive it more spirited, I could isolate it:
When I downshift and normal shifting speed from 3rd into neutral and then into 2nd (and also shifting directly from 3rd into 2nd), I get a major awful clonking sound and a feeling like the drivetrain gets hit hard (I can avoid it only by shifting very carefully into second). I don't think I had that issue before. Again to the mechanic - he looked at the drive shaft and diagnosed that the sound comes from the shaft being to loose in that mid-way rubber/steel mount. He also suggested to make that more tight. I did with zero success - no change at all.

At this point I cannot tolerate these flaws. The clunking sound (issue 3) is something major mechanical that cannot be ignored.

What should I do?

- Insists that he fixes the tranny (he offered that I could "come back" if I were not happy, but I kinda get the feeling he doesn't really want to have anything to do with this - the problem seems to be always somewhere else).
- Ask for a refund of the money I paid for the rebuild.
- other ?

Any ideas what this clunking sound when down-shifting is?

Thank you all for reading and your input!
Atlantic is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-22-2012, 05:30 PM
But Mad North-Northwest
Platinum Subscriber
 
Gubi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Posts: 9,659
Well, the grind from neutral to first at least is normal. Alfa first gear only has half a synchronizer setup for some reason. If you can keep it from grinding by either (a) holding down the clutch for a few seconds and then shifting into first, or (b) touching another gear and then shifting into first then there's nothing wrong with it.

That clonk sounds like a more serious problem. It happens during the shift? That is, before you let the clutch out?

Tom

1963 Giulia Spider (1750 engine)
1974 GTV
1991 Spider
Former: 1987 Milano Gold
Gubi is online now  
post #3 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-22-2012, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Atlantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: CA 91001
Posts: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gubi View Post
...

That clonk sounds like a more serious problem. It happens during the shift? That is, before you let the clutch out?
Yes, when I put the gear in, before I let the clutch out.
Atlantic is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-22-2012, 05:41 PM
Push hard and live
Gold Subscriber
 
DPeterson3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Carson City, NV
Posts: 8,694
Garage
Have you confirmed that they put ONLY Dentax transmission oil into, and absolutely NOT a later EP oil? This is critical. Of course, if the transmission was rebuilt before it may have been converted to the later style components which use EP oil. First thing is to ask precisely what kind of oil, and if you don't hear the word "Dentax" you need to keep digging. If he says anything but Dentax, as what type of synchros and other parts he replaced.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #5 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-22-2012, 06:39 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oregon
Posts: 117
Did you get an itemized list of all the parts he put in the transmission? 1965 Alfas originally had non-moly syncros and sleeves which is pretty rare to find new ones. If he used moly syncros and did not use the detents and bands from a moly transmission then if will shift terrible and be very hard to get into gear. As Gubi says 1st gear is not a full syncro, however they can be made a full syncro. The clonking (clunking?) could be sagging engine or tranmission mounts allowing one of the transmission bolts to bump against the clutch pedal lever. It sounds like you didn't get a "complete transmission rebuild" but just some parts replaced. A complete transmission rebuild should cost from $1500. to over $2000. more if it needs some bearings,plus the clutch parts and labor. More info from you would help!

OFRACER
OFRACER is offline  
post #6 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-22-2012, 07:51 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Atlantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: CA 91001
Posts: 139
Thank you for the comments guys!

I did mention Dentax, but the mechanic said that their gear oil was just fine. I give/gave them a lot of credit. They have been doing vintage Alfa for a long time and even race vintage Alfas.

OFRACER, I did not get a detailed invoice for the tranny rebuild. At the same time I had the clutch rebuild, and previously - in September - the entire engine. I would assume the mounts are okay, but honestly I don't know - maybe they forgot something!? You are right - "clunking" (sorry, English is not my first language).
However, he said, he only needed to replace the syncro for the 2nd and everything else was fine.
Atlantic is offline  
post #7 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 07:49 AM
Push hard and live
Gold Subscriber
 
DPeterson3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Carson City, NV
Posts: 8,694
Garage
At the end of the day, the problems won't be solved by us on the BB. You will have to meet with the shop owner and get specific. Depending upon his nature, he may not like being challenged. However, the comments here are all valid - Dentax only (unless ALL the Dentax-specific parts have been changed), no mix and matching of early and late components, new or good engine and transmission mount. Also, make sure the rubber biscuit "Giubo" just behind the transmission is not broken.

There have been BB'ers that have posted alternative oils to Dentax, and perhaps they work. It requires some interpretation of codes, and I personally find Dentax easy enough to get that I see no point in taking the risk.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #8 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 10:27 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,272
Your Issue #2 has been around All Alfas since around 1950. the "Alfa Shift" - press clutch, touch second, push into first - has been a cultural habit for many alfisti for decades. Some love it - like knowing the temple secrets, others hate it.. There is a complete solution, which Alfa should have done 60 years ago. Read this to fix the first gear issues:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/tran...-gear-fix.html

Robert

Last edited by 60sRacer; 02-23-2012 at 10:32 AM.
60sRacer is offline  
post #9 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 10:41 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Atlantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: CA 91001
Posts: 139
Hi Robert,

I have read your post and thought it was really cool how you fixed the problem - simple it seams. I am not sure if I should/can do it by myself. I am somewhat handy, but I have never done a transmission. That was the reason why I went to an expert with a good reputation. I would not want to ask him to do that modification - I mentioned it once and he actually said he never heard of it.
If I do it by myself, I think I should try to get the money back from him first.

Any more ideas what that clunking could be? The doughnut is fine - actually looks new.

Thx again!



Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sRacer View Post
Your Issue #2 has been around All Alfas since around 1950. the "Alfa Shift" - press clutch, touch second, push into first - has been a cultural habit for many alfisti for decades. Some love it - like knowing the temple secrets, others hate it.. There is a complete solution, which Alfa should have done 60 years ago. Read this to fix the first gear issues:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/tran...-gear-fix.html

Robert

To loosen the thread up a little I though I include an up-to date pic of her - pretty, but "sick"
Attached Images
 
Atlantic is offline  
post #10 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 12:12 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,272
In any case, if you have to take the transmission apart - or have a mechanic do it, please implement this fix. You can do it as I originally did, by just replacing a few bits inside the first gear GIANT snap ring, but the extra idea from the BB in that thread to replace the dog ring with one from a used 4th or fifth gear (call Larry at APE - see out suppliers list) is really good. Check the 2nd and 3rd dog teeth too.

Anybody that opens an Alfa TX should do this!!

As to your other problems, you really need to find out what your mechanic did to your TX. Bearings, synchro rings, and shift sleeves are typical parts that should have been replaced if he did an overhaul. An expert such a Gordon or Richard Jameson (BB members) would do this stuff by shipping the TX to them. They also would likely study the dog teeth to replace any that are worn - typically 1st and 2nd, sometimes 3rd, rarely 4th or 5th.

I agree with many others that you first need to get the right gear lube. It sounds like you are having a tight shifting problem; Alfa TX's are VERY touchy about the right gear lube. Many (including me) use ONLY Shell Spirax (for Moly synchs) or Dentax (for non-moly shnchros) by specific brand, EP 90 weight. Even using Spirax where you needed Dentax (or vice versa) will give you problems.

A few BBers use a Redline gear lube, but I think it only applies to the moly synchro TX's. You can do a search here to find the threads.

After that, look carefully at your motor mounts, and the aft transmission mount bushing. If these are sagging, you can have problems. The center driveshaft bushing is unlikely to be a problem. This thing in your car (like mine) is amazingly soft, which it should be. As long as the drive shaft is balanced, it should be fine. OTOH, if you have to take the TX out, you (or he) will pull the drive shaft. If so, replacing the rubber ring is trivial - maybe 5 minutes if you stop to polish a tool or two. They are available form the usual suppliers.

Another issue that often happens - either from sagging mounts or sloppy re-assembly - is interference between the Tx shift tower and the body. Take the shift covers (three layers including two rubber boots) off, and also look a the steel domed washers under the shift lever. Any of these bits can get out of place and interfere in some shift positions. You can see this by shifting with the covers off.

If it's none of these things, then you'll have to pull the TX again, as something is wrong inside. But check the oil first and second. And maybe third! Then take the covers off to look for interference. Then LOOK at the mounts - it's obvious if they are sagging, they look like melting michelin man tires - fat, bloated, skewed sideways. The rear TX mount is hard to see, but if you take the four bolts that hold the support to the body, you can get eyes on.

Good luck

Robert
60sRacer is offline  
post #11 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 12:17 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,272
As to your mechanic never hearing of the "First Gear Fix", well, duh. I did this in my garage in 1971, thinking it was just stupidly obvious. Didn't even mention it to the racers I hung with, thinking I'd just be chided for being so obvious. Finally posted it on this BB in about 2005 and then realized that nobody had done it. Now dozens have, and more do it every time a TX gets opened.

Robert
Norseman50 likes this.
60sRacer is offline  
post #12 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 03:27 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oregon
Posts: 117
I don't think the clunking is from inside the transmission, as Robert says take the rubber boots off the shift lever and push the clutch lever in, when you do that look for interference with the body from the shift tower, also there should be two big rubber/neoprene washers between the rear mount and the crossmember, those could be missing. You could start the engine and push in the clutch while the rubber boots are off and listen and maybe use a small piece wood to pry the shift tower from side to side to isolate the clunking. Taking the transmission out would be the last thing Iwould do. Good luck with the project.

OFRACER
OFRACER is offline  
post #13 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 04:48 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,272
BTW - these are all easy things that you surely can do. It takes naught but as screwdriver and a 10 mm wrench for most of the screws to inspect things. Have at it!

Robert
60sRacer is offline  
post #14 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 05:26 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Atlantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: CA 91001
Posts: 139
Thank you Robert and ofracer!

I went to the mechanic this afternoon to discuss the tranny issues with him. He already knew about it, 'cause someone had called him and told him about this thread - strange move, but hey there is nothing secretive about a public forum. I got the feeling he felt pretty bad though which in turn made me feel somewhat squeeze.

Anyhow, back to the subject:
He said, he used new syncros and that the 65 tranny never came with older moly sycros - so no mix-and-match issue here. When I told them that very knowledgeable people here insist on the dentax, he responded that this is what he was using. That surprised me, because I remember Vavoline was mentioned. He stated that a particular Vavoline he uses had the same rating/qualities. I don't know.

As to checking the dog gears and all that, that should come with a rebuild, I am not sure. He told me today, that it is all pretty simple and they only had to change the second gear syncro ring (as the invoice states and the reseal - a given I guess if you spilt it - nothing else re work on the TX for the rebuild - sorry, I mention ithis here, 'cause the person who called told him that I said he gave no invoice).

When I mentioned the first gear fix Robert (when I told him first about the upshift grinding in 1st after the rebuild), it was news to him. Hence, I'd only want to do it by myself with the assistance of a friend. I still see this as a favored option for me.

I guess it all comes down to me trying to figure out what to do. I paid someone to not have to deal with issues and have a perfectly working TX. I had already 4 trips (without today) after the rebuild to the mechanic for this TX and I am still not pleased. You guys with your comments help me to figure out the standard I should and can expect.

I just need to ad here, that he is a nice guy and he said he wants me happy with the TX. That is great and I appreciate it. But when I hear on the other side that
a) grinding in 1st is normale even for a rebuilt TX,
b) the clunking might be because of my driving style,
I am in a predicament and wonder how opening the TX again will fix these issues.
Atlantic is offline  
post #15 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 05:43 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,272
If he uses Valvoline, I'd just go to a NAPA or similar auto store and get some Shell. BUT - moly synchs are the NEWEST type, not the older ones. They are distinguished by their surface appearance: Moly synchs look like they are splattered with weld slag on the outer surface. Older ones are smooth with two small grooves on each side. The shift rings are specific to each style. Five synchro rings, three shift rings. These transmissions are superb when properly built, especially with the moly syncros. AFAIR, Shell SPIRAX goes with the moly rings, Dentax with the older style.

Your text has me a bit confused as to which synchs you have. A '65 should have the older non-moly rings I think, and use Dentax.

Be sure to check your motor mounts - its just a flashlight job. The intake side is hard to see with all the carbs in the way. I slip my iPhone camera in place and take a photo.

Some of the early sedans had shift on the steering column. Does yours? If its floor mounted, you could be getting some interference with the opening of the body tunnel. It's easy to take the plastic and rubber covers off to see.


Take a few pics for us. It helps a lot to diagnose by remote control.

Robert
60sRacer is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome