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Opinion on my 65 Tranny rebuild/issues please

5K views 44 replies 8 participants last post by  Atlantic 
#1 ·
Okay, I'll try to make it short:

I would like not to have the mechanic's name mentioned here (some of you know who did this work and lots of you know him) - he is a nice guy and I do not want to harm his reputation!

I had the tranny of my 1965 Giulia 1600 Ti rebuild and since have had 3 issues of which 2 are not solved.

BACKGROUND:

I had my clutch replaced. The mechanic noticed the tranny was leaking significantly (which I also noticed before) and suggested to rebuild it. I asked if it were better to replace it with a rebuilt one. He said, it would be much better if he did it, so we would know what was in it.
I had an issue with first anyhow (grinding when shifting into first from neutral after a full stop), so I said yes. I did notice that the tranny must have been rebuild not too long ago - there was fresh Curl-T at the seams.


FIRST ISSUE:
I pick up the car, drive it home on the freeway, and notice the next morning that there is still a major leak from the tranny. I took it back- they found the inner shift boot being completely ripped apart. They did not check this when they rebuild the tranny obviously. This definitely was a source of leakage before - I mentioned this, but he said it was leaking from other areas and needed the re-seal.

SECOND ISSUE:
As soon as the car warms up I noticed a significant grinding shifting into first from neutral after a full stop. I went to the mechanic, he changed the gear oil which did not help. At my second visit for this issue he told me that this is normal for this tranny. I asked if people bought the car with this flaw in 65 right off the showroom - he said yes.
I know it is a typical 5-gear Alfa issue. But from the beginning on ? I have my doubts (how about Road and Track not mentioning it in their review - and I am sure they would have!).
Now I felt completely sad for my money
Well, I got used to the tapping into second before going into first (funny enough, I do it on my VW bus now as well ).

THIRD ISSUE:
From the beginning on I noticed and mentioned a clonking sound and feel (!) sometimes when shifting. Now that I got used to the car and drive it more spirited, I could isolate it:
When I downshift and normal shifting speed from 3rd into neutral and then into 2nd (and also shifting directly from 3rd into 2nd), I get a major awful clonking sound and a feeling like the drivetrain gets hit hard (I can avoid it only by shifting very carefully into second). I don't think I had that issue before. Again to the mechanic - he looked at the drive shaft and diagnosed that the sound comes from the shaft being to loose in that mid-way rubber/steel mount. He also suggested to make that more tight. I did with zero success - no change at all.

At this point I cannot tolerate these flaws. The clunking sound (issue 3) is something major mechanical that cannot be ignored.

What should I do?

- Insists that he fixes the tranny (he offered that I could "come back" if I were not happy, but I kinda get the feeling he doesn't really want to have anything to do with this - the problem seems to be always somewhere else).
- Ask for a refund of the money I paid for the rebuild.
- other ?

Any ideas what this clunking sound when down-shifting is?

Thank you all for reading and your input!
 
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#2 ·
Well, the grind from neutral to first at least is normal. Alfa first gear only has half a synchronizer setup for some reason. If you can keep it from grinding by either (a) holding down the clutch for a few seconds and then shifting into first, or (b) touching another gear and then shifting into first then there's nothing wrong with it.

That clonk sounds like a more serious problem. It happens during the shift? That is, before you let the clutch out?
 
#4 ·
Have you confirmed that they put ONLY Dentax transmission oil into, and absolutely NOT a later EP oil? This is critical. Of course, if the transmission was rebuilt before it may have been converted to the later style components which use EP oil. First thing is to ask precisely what kind of oil, and if you don't hear the word "Dentax" you need to keep digging. If he says anything but Dentax, as what type of synchros and other parts he replaced.
 
#5 ·
Did you get an itemized list of all the parts he put in the transmission? 1965 Alfas originally had non-moly syncros and sleeves which is pretty rare to find new ones. If he used moly syncros and did not use the detents and bands from a moly transmission then if will shift terrible and be very hard to get into gear. As Gubi says 1st gear is not a full syncro, however they can be made a full syncro. The clonking (clunking?) could be sagging engine or tranmission mounts allowing one of the transmission bolts to bump against the clutch pedal lever. It sounds like you didn't get a "complete transmission rebuild" but just some parts replaced. A complete transmission rebuild should cost from $1500. to over $2000. more if it needs some bearings,plus the clutch parts and labor. More info from you would help!

OFRACER
 
#6 ·
Thank you for the comments guys!

I did mention Dentax, but the mechanic said that their gear oil was just fine. I give/gave them a lot of credit. They have been doing vintage Alfa for a long time and even race vintage Alfas.

OFRACER, I did not get a detailed invoice for the tranny rebuild. At the same time I had the clutch rebuild, and previously - in September - the entire engine. I would assume the mounts are okay, but honestly I don't know - maybe they forgot something!? You are right - "clunking" (sorry, English is not my first language).
However, he said, he only needed to replace the syncro for the 2nd and everything else was fine.
 
#7 ·
At the end of the day, the problems won't be solved by us on the BB. You will have to meet with the shop owner and get specific. Depending upon his nature, he may not like being challenged. However, the comments here are all valid - Dentax only (unless ALL the Dentax-specific parts have been changed), no mix and matching of early and late components, new or good engine and transmission mount. Also, make sure the rubber biscuit "Giubo" just behind the transmission is not broken.

There have been BB'ers that have posted alternative oils to Dentax, and perhaps they work. It requires some interpretation of codes, and I personally find Dentax easy enough to get that I see no point in taking the risk.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Your Issue #2 has been around All Alfas since around 1950. the "Alfa Shift" - press clutch, touch second, push into first - has been a cultural habit for many alfisti for decades. Some love it - like knowing the temple secrets, others hate it.. There is a complete solution, which Alfa should have done 60 years ago. Read this to fix the first gear issues:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/transmissions/29492-first-gear-fix.html

Robert
 
#9 ·
Hi Robert,

I have read your post and thought it was really cool how you fixed the problem - simple it seams. I am not sure if I should/can do it by myself. I am somewhat handy, but I have never done a transmission. That was the reason why I went to an expert with a good reputation. I would not want to ask him to do that modification - I mentioned it once and he actually said he never heard of it.
If I do it by myself, I think I should try to get the money back from him first.

Any more ideas what that clunking could be? The doughnut is fine - actually looks new.

Thx again!






To loosen the thread up a little I though I include an up-to date pic of her - pretty, but "sick" :(
 

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#10 ·
In any case, if you have to take the transmission apart - or have a mechanic do it, please implement this fix. You can do it as I originally did, by just replacing a few bits inside the first gear GIANT snap ring, but the extra idea from the BB in that thread to replace the dog ring with one from a used 4th or fifth gear (call Larry at APE - see out suppliers list) is really good. Check the 2nd and 3rd dog teeth too.

Anybody that opens an Alfa TX should do this!!

As to your other problems, you really need to find out what your mechanic did to your TX. Bearings, synchro rings, and shift sleeves are typical parts that should have been replaced if he did an overhaul. An expert such a Gordon or Richard Jameson (BB members) would do this stuff by shipping the TX to them. They also would likely study the dog teeth to replace any that are worn - typically 1st and 2nd, sometimes 3rd, rarely 4th or 5th.

I agree with many others that you first need to get the right gear lube. It sounds like you are having a tight shifting problem; Alfa TX's are VERY touchy about the right gear lube. Many (including me) use ONLY Shell Spirax (for Moly synchs) or Dentax (for non-moly shnchros) by specific brand, EP 90 weight. Even using Spirax where you needed Dentax (or vice versa) will give you problems.

A few BBers use a Redline gear lube, but I think it only applies to the moly synchro TX's. You can do a search here to find the threads.

After that, look carefully at your motor mounts, and the aft transmission mount bushing. If these are sagging, you can have problems. The center driveshaft bushing is unlikely to be a problem. This thing in your car (like mine) is amazingly soft, which it should be. As long as the drive shaft is balanced, it should be fine. OTOH, if you have to take the TX out, you (or he) will pull the drive shaft. If so, replacing the rubber ring is trivial - maybe 5 minutes if you stop to polish a tool or two. They are available form the usual suppliers.

Another issue that often happens - either from sagging mounts or sloppy re-assembly - is interference between the Tx shift tower and the body. Take the shift covers (three layers including two rubber boots) off, and also look a the steel domed washers under the shift lever. Any of these bits can get out of place and interfere in some shift positions. You can see this by shifting with the covers off.

If it's none of these things, then you'll have to pull the TX again, as something is wrong inside. But check the oil first and second. And maybe third! Then take the covers off to look for interference. Then LOOK at the mounts - it's obvious if they are sagging, they look like melting michelin man tires - fat, bloated, skewed sideways. The rear TX mount is hard to see, but if you take the four bolts that hold the support to the body, you can get eyes on.

Good luck

Robert
 
#11 ·
As to your mechanic never hearing of the "First Gear Fix", well, duh. I did this in my garage in 1971, thinking it was just stupidly obvious. Didn't even mention it to the racers I hung with, thinking I'd just be chided for being so obvious. Finally posted it on this BB in about 2005 and then realized that nobody had done it. Now dozens have, and more do it every time a TX gets opened.

Robert
 
#12 ·
I don't think the clunking is from inside the transmission, as Robert says take the rubber boots off the shift lever and push the clutch lever in, when you do that look for interference with the body from the shift tower, also there should be two big rubber/neoprene washers between the rear mount and the crossmember, those could be missing. You could start the engine and push in the clutch while the rubber boots are off and listen and maybe use a small piece wood to pry the shift tower from side to side to isolate the clunking. Taking the transmission out would be the last thing Iwould do. Good luck with the project.

OFRACER
 
#14 ·
Thank you Robert and ofracer!

I went to the mechanic this afternoon to discuss the tranny issues with him. He already knew about it, 'cause someone had called him and told him about this thread - strange move, but hey there is nothing secretive about a public forum. I got the feeling he felt pretty bad though which in turn made me feel somewhat squeeze.

Anyhow, back to the subject:
He said, he used new syncros and that the 65 tranny never came with older moly sycros - so no mix-and-match issue here. When I told them that very knowledgeable people here insist on the dentax, he responded that this is what he was using. That surprised me, because I remember Vavoline was mentioned. He stated that a particular Vavoline he uses had the same rating/qualities. I don't know.

As to checking the dog gears and all that, that should come with a rebuild, I am not sure. He told me today, that it is all pretty simple and they only had to change the second gear syncro ring (as the invoice states and the reseal - a given I guess if you spilt it - nothing else re work on the TX for the rebuild - sorry, I mention ithis here, 'cause the person who called told him that I said he gave no invoice).

When I mentioned the first gear fix Robert (when I told him first about the upshift grinding in 1st after the rebuild), it was news to him. Hence, I'd only want to do it by myself with the assistance of a friend. I still see this as a favored option for me.

I guess it all comes down to me trying to figure out what to do. I paid someone to not have to deal with issues and have a perfectly working TX. I had already 4 trips (without today) after the rebuild to the mechanic for this TX and I am still not pleased. You guys with your comments help me to figure out the standard I should and can expect.

I just need to ad here, that he is a nice guy and he said he wants me happy with the TX. That is great and I appreciate it. But when I hear on the other side that
a) grinding in 1st is normale even for a rebuilt TX,
b) the clunking might be because of my driving style,
I am in a predicament and wonder how opening the TX again will fix these issues.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I guess it all comes down to me trying to figure out what to do. I paid someone to not have to deal with issues and have a perfectly working TX. I had already 4 trips (without today) after the rebuild to the mechanic for this TX and I am still not pleased. You guys with your comments help me to figure out the standard I should and can expect.
Here's my take: if you paid for a transmission rebuild, you should have gotten a good working transmission back. If it's shifting worse than when you gave it to him, he screwed something up and should make it right, period.

Wrong parts, wrong fluid, clutch problem, whatever...he's the guy who should be figuring out why it's worse now than when you gave it to him.

He should know this, at the very least for the sake of protecting his reputation. My mechanic once told me he's done a lot of come-backs even on things that weren't actually his fault for free, just because it's easier to do the work than to risk someone dinging you online.
 
#15 ·
If he uses Valvoline, I'd just go to a NAPA or similar auto store and get some Shell. BUT - moly synchs are the NEWEST type, not the older ones. They are distinguished by their surface appearance: Moly synchs look like they are splattered with weld slag on the outer surface. Older ones are smooth with two small grooves on each side. The shift rings are specific to each style. Five synchro rings, three shift rings. These transmissions are superb when properly built, especially with the moly syncros. AFAIR, Shell SPIRAX goes with the moly rings, Dentax with the older style.

Your text has me a bit confused as to which synchs you have. A '65 should have the older non-moly rings I think, and use Dentax.

Be sure to check your motor mounts - its just a flashlight job. The intake side is hard to see with all the carbs in the way. I slip my iPhone camera in place and take a photo.

Some of the early sedans had shift on the steering column. Does yours? If its floor mounted, you could be getting some interference with the opening of the body tunnel. It's easy to take the plastic and rubber covers off to see.


Take a few pics for us. It helps a lot to diagnose by remote control.

Robert
 
#18 ·
Good points Tom and I agree. Not only do I make my own comebacks right I spend a lot of time fixing other guys screw up's, too. It's really hard to diagnose a problem on-line and be right. Take it back or go get your money back and take it to someone who really can fix Alfas. Bill
 
#19 ·
Here are some pictures:

One thing I noticed is that the tranny is wet (drops indicated with red arrows). I am not sure if this is from the engine (rebuild less than 3000mi ago by same mechanic) or the tranny though - the clutch cable is completely wet and it is dripping from the rear tranny mounts:
 

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#22 · (Edited)
I'm not as familiar with the 101/105 as I used to be, but isn't there a "spigot" at the end of the transmission that sticks into a bushing in the prop-shaft? Maybe that's a 102 thing or at the center giubo. Memory not working this morning. Anyway, if the bushing or spigot-ball gets worn you can get various rattling and clunky things going on.

As others have noted, it is critical to be precise in this stuff. Moly vs non-Moly, Dentax vs anything else. If you're running anything but Dentax (regardless of comparable ratings) drain it and replace it. You might be surprised that it fixes at least your first gear grind.

Oh - and I wish any of my Alfas had as few drops of oily stuff on the bottom as yours does. That's not to say you can't achieve perfect dryness, but I have found it to be elusive.
 
#23 ·
I just got back from a test drive with the car again. I am trying to really understand the problem. So far, drive shaft has been one of the probable causes - as I understand, the sudden torque makes it slam against the body.

Well, I only get the clunking when I downshift into second (from 3rd) - I do NOT get it at all when downshifting from 4th into 3rd. I think that rules out the drive shaft and points into the transmission.

I realize more and more that it happens at normal shifting. I didn't realize before that I was always shifting very carefully.
 
#27 ·
Well, I only get the clunking when I downshift into second (from 3rd) - I do NOT get it at all when downshifting from 4th into 3rd. I think that rules out the drive shaft and points into the transmission.
Note that in higher speeds centrifugal force keeps drive saft in line, so down sifting 2-3 can make some vibrating and centre rubber mount(if poor shape) let drive shaft hit the body and make that clunking noise.
Just my thought, don't shot me if I am wrong :)
 
#24 ·
Yeah, those leaks are nothing. There may be a completely dry Alfa out there, but I've never seen one.

As long as it's not pissing on the floor it's fine. And even if it's pissing on the floor it's probably fine :D

Did your mechanic actually test drive the car when you brought it back? What did he say about the shifting?
 
#25 ·
The motor mount in the photo looks fine. If the other one is similar, it should be too. Still a bit hard to tell about the TX mount. From under the car pushing up on the guibo (donut) will tell you if the rear mount is sagging.

Oil under an Alfa isn't too unusual - remember that these cars are 4 or 5 decades old, so the engine rear main seal (often a problem) can leak simply because the contact surface on the crankshaft has a fine groove worn in it. From the various locations, it looks like the leak is oil from somewhere forward of the TX. Besides, TX lube is heavy and very stinky compared to engine oil, so a simple finger and nose test will tell you if the TX is leaking. You did say that the rubber boots were torn, so that would accumulate TX oil.

I'd jack the car up on stands and pressure wash the engine and TX area, then watch carefully to find the true source of the oil. At least it's not a British car - they seemed to leak oil THROUGH the metal..... ;)

As to your clunk: 3-2 shift is the biggest torque jump, so any problem will be most obvious there. You have to be very aware to tell if it's also happening on the 4-3 and 5-4 shifts. You almost never make a 2-1 downshift since the 1st gear is so low, but it'd likely be worse than the 3-2 shift.

An alternate possibility is that the 3-2 shift is toward the side of the body tunnel. It there is near-interference between the TX and the body, you could get the clunk you mention; in this case, there would be nothing on the other shifts.

You have to be very discerning to tell the difference.

As to 1st gear grunch: Get a good (used) dog gear - RJR, Spruel, APE, and some others can supply a 4 or 5 gear as a source. Larry at APE has done so many that I think he has a stock of separated dog teeth. Also get the few bits and segments needed (see the thread). Put them in a HD ziplock and store it for the next time the TX is apart. You have to completely disassemble the mains shaft to get to the 1st gear, so it's a major project, but you'll eventually get there (or your mechanic will).

If your mechanic is skeptical, point him to the thread cited! If he doesn't understand that and completely agree, fire him!

When I was 16, my dad bought me my first car. He spent $500 on a 4-year old Corvair, and another $500 on a substantial set of Craftsman tools. The later was the best gift he ever bought me! I've been fiddling with are ever since.

Good Luck

Robert
 
#26 ·
just another thing I have been wondering about:

when you rebuild the tranny, do you just leave the shift boots on - and that's why he missed the ripped boot?
I don't know, but I'd think the boots and the shifter come off?



I am kind of getting close to understand where I am at and what I want. Again - thx to all your help/comments.
 
#30 ·
...when you rebuild the tranny, do you just leave the shift boots on - and that's why he missed the ripped boot?
I don't know, but I'd think the boots and the shifter come off?
You can't get the TX out of the car without removing the shift lever; the bolt for that is under both the leather shift boot and both the rubber inner boots. Was the rubber boot torn before? It's possible it got torn during the R&R. [That's Remove & Reinstall in shop flat-rate speak].

Most of us have also chosen to work on the TX by pulling the entire engine-TX assembly. It makes it lots easier to align the TX input shaft with the clutch and flywheel pilot bushing. There are a few bolts at the bell housing that are a pain to get at to just pull the TX alone. BTW - it is common for these - at the top of the bell housing above the starter and on the EX side in a similar place - to not be put back in well. Not tightened, sometimes (horrors!) not put back at all. There are several discussions that recur about this.

Some Alfisti replace the upper bell housing bolts with somewhat larger ones threaded into the aluminum, or with helical inserts in the aluminum to use stock size (but shorter) bolts. The issue is that getting a wrench on the nut side of these is nearly impossible. These are the guys that think it's easier to R/R the TX with the engine in place.

I'm on the other side - pull the entire engine and TX - mostly because there are always a bunch of things I want to do to the engine side anyway. I just save them up for one bigger project. e.g.: I'm currently saving a set of Spruel motor mount protectors for the next engine pull, and I'll also put in the oil cooler thermostat and remote filter (already have an oil cooler installed several years ago). If I get a set of the new headers, those too will go in. And the TX is going to get new dog teeth, and a lightweight aluminum flywheel I've had for over a year will go in.

With the engine out I'll also replace the old steel brake lines with new copper alloy ones.

See - the list just grows........

Robert
 
#28 ·
Alright,

I talked to Larry at APE and to Merrit Carden. Both were exceptionally nice and helpful. Both were of the definite opinion that a freshly rebuild tranny should NOT grind in first.

... I'll call the mechanic now and see what we'll do about all this.
 
#31 ·
I talked to Larry at APE and to Merrit Carden. Both were exceptionally nice and helpful. Both were of the definite opinion that a freshly rebuild tranny should NOT grind in first.
Larry and Merrit both are very smart and experienced guys, but they're essentially wrong on this one. With the design of the Alfa transmission, the first gear synchronizer DOES NOT ENGAGE at all going from neutral to first. There is a piece in the other gears that is not in the first gear assembly. Maybe with brand new, sharp, dog teeth on first it might be better, but the underlying problem will always be there.

Now, Robert's modification will fix this issue, but it's not widely known and unless you discussed making this change before the rebuild it would not be considered a "standard" part of the job. So I don't think the fact that it still does this should be considered a mistake by the mechanic. On the first gear grinding, suggest you either:

1) Do what most Alfa guys do and touch another gear before shifting into first, or:

2) Have the mechanic add the parts per Robert's instructions, but pay for the labor/parts on this as an extra item

The poor shifting, on the other hand, sounds like a real issue. If I were you, I would focus on having him fix the "clonk" since that isn't good. Did he ever test drive the car? What did he say about the issues you reported?
 
#33 ·
The boots have to be removed for rebuild and replacing them is a must if ripped. the tower to shift rod boot keeps the oil in the trans. those leaks are bad for a fresh rebuild. how much is leaving while driving?

First gear syncro carrier
They are "one sided" due to the fact that you cannot upshift to first, only downshift( milano and GTV-6 transaxles are set up same way) all the other gears can be subject to needing syncro effect for speeding up and lowering the speed of a gear relative to output shaft.
All the "need to" pause or touch second is usually due to worn 1st, cold trans oil and the fact that 1st is spinning 54% faster than second thus to do a good down shift into 1st from 2nd at 1500 RPM's you need to blip throttle to 2310.
At 2000 RPM's you need to hit 3080 RPM's to slide into 1st.
I think most people don't throttle up enough on downshifts to 1st and blame the trans.

When sitting at a light in neutral and car idling, engine 850 RPM approx.
and you step on clutch and shove into 1st at that instant the slider is not moving, 0 RPM ( connected to output shaft i.e. drive shaft) 1st gear is at 262 RPM's and you expect it to instantly engage.

I often put 2-5th carriers on first only for the reason that it is hard to find a good 1st carrier. Not for any improved syncro action.

Any questions feel free to call

Alfa Parts Exchange (925)200-1998
 
#34 ·
Larry, I've got a ton of respect for the expertise you and your dad have. But I'm afraid you're incorrect in this case.

First gear syncro carrier
They are "one sided" due to the fact that you cannot upshift to first, only downshift( milano and GTV-6 transaxles are set up same way) all the other gears can be subject to needing syncro effect for speeding up and lowering the speed of a gear relative to output shaft
A shift from neutral to first at a stop is effectively an "upshift". The input shaft is spinning faster than the output shaft and needs to be slowed down. This is where the missing bits in the carrier would come into play.

Without the missing side of the synchro carrier, the synchro cannot engage in this case to slow down the input shaft. Thus you get the Alfa first gear grind.


When sitting at a light in neutral and car idling, engine 850 RPM approx.
and you step on clutch and shove into 1st at that instant the slider is not moving, 0 RPM ( connected to output shaft i.e. drive shaft) 1st gear is at 262 RPM's and you expect it to instantly engage.
On almost every other type of car this scenario presents no problem. Since the synchro carrier parts are there, even if you shift quickly the synchronizer will engage and slow 1st gear to 0 RPM before allowing the gears to mesh. This is the reason all other cars have the bits that Alfa left out of the synchro carrier.

The Alfa transmission can only engage the 1st gear synchro to speed up the input shaft because the synchro only has one side to the carrier. That's why on the Alfa at a stop you need to either wait for the spinning to slow on its own or touch another gear to use the synchro in that gear to stop the spinning.

The fact is that every other fully-synchronized transmission has a double sided synchro carrier for first. There's a good reason for this.
 
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