Opinion on my 65 Tranny rebuild/issues please - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 06:08 PM
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Just my 2 cents. This sounds like a bad clutch disc. Like someone angled the trans too much on the install and bent the center piece of the disc. Does the clutch start to engage just off the floor? Just a thought that might be worthwhile chasing down. Bill
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post #17 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 06:19 PM
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I guess it all comes down to me trying to figure out what to do. I paid someone to not have to deal with issues and have a perfectly working TX. I had already 4 trips (without today) after the rebuild to the mechanic for this TX and I am still not pleased. You guys with your comments help me to figure out the standard I should and can expect.
Here's my take: if you paid for a transmission rebuild, you should have gotten a good working transmission back. If it's shifting worse than when you gave it to him, he screwed something up and should make it right, period.

Wrong parts, wrong fluid, clutch problem, whatever...he's the guy who should be figuring out why it's worse now than when you gave it to him.

He should know this, at the very least for the sake of protecting his reputation. My mechanic once told me he's done a lot of come-backs even on things that weren't actually his fault for free, just because it's easier to do the work than to risk someone dinging you online.

Tom

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Last edited by Gubi; 02-23-2012 at 06:25 PM. Reason: Grammar.
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post #18 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-24-2012, 03:23 AM
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Good points Tom and I agree. Not only do I make my own comebacks right I spend a lot of time fixing other guys screw up's, too. It's really hard to diagnose a problem on-line and be right. Take it back or go get your money back and take it to someone who really can fix Alfas. Bill
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post #19 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-24-2012, 08:51 AM Thread Starter
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Here are some pictures:

One thing I noticed is that the tranny is wet (drops indicated with red arrows). I am not sure if this is from the engine (rebuild less than 3000mi ago by same mechanic) or the tranny though - the clutch cable is completely wet and it is dripping from the rear tranny mounts:
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post #20 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-24-2012, 08:52 AM Thread Starter
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this is a shot of the passenger side engine mount. I'd say the driver side mount looks the same (couldn't get a picture of the driver side - light and focus was hard):
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post #21 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-24-2012, 08:53 AM Thread Starter
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... and a shot of the doughnut:
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post #22 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-24-2012, 09:15 AM
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I'm not as familiar with the 101/105 as I used to be, but isn't there a "spigot" at the end of the transmission that sticks into a bushing in the prop-shaft? Maybe that's a 102 thing or at the center giubo. Memory not working this morning. Anyway, if the bushing or spigot-ball gets worn you can get various rattling and clunky things going on.

As others have noted, it is critical to be precise in this stuff. Moly vs non-Moly, Dentax vs anything else. If you're running anything but Dentax (regardless of comparable ratings) drain it and replace it. You might be surprised that it fixes at least your first gear grind.

Oh - and I wish any of my Alfas had as few drops of oily stuff on the bottom as yours does. That's not to say you can't achieve perfect dryness, but I have found it to be elusive.

Don P
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Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...

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post #23 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-24-2012, 09:47 AM Thread Starter
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I just got back from a test drive with the car again. I am trying to really understand the problem. So far, drive shaft has been one of the probable causes - as I understand, the sudden torque makes it slam against the body.

Well, I only get the clunking when I downshift into second (from 3rd) - I do NOT get it at all when downshifting from 4th into 3rd. I think that rules out the drive shaft and points into the transmission.

I realize more and more that it happens at normal shifting. I didn't realize before that I was always shifting very carefully.
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post #24 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-24-2012, 10:02 AM
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Yeah, those leaks are nothing. There may be a completely dry Alfa out there, but I've never seen one.

As long as it's not pissing on the floor it's fine. And even if it's pissing on the floor it's probably fine

Did your mechanic actually test drive the car when you brought it back? What did he say about the shifting?

Tom

1963 Giulia Spider (1750 engine)
1974 GTV
1991 Spider
Former: 1987 Milano Gold
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post #25 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-24-2012, 10:40 AM
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The motor mount in the photo looks fine. If the other one is similar, it should be too. Still a bit hard to tell about the TX mount. From under the car pushing up on the guibo (donut) will tell you if the rear mount is sagging.

Oil under an Alfa isn't too unusual - remember that these cars are 4 or 5 decades old, so the engine rear main seal (often a problem) can leak simply because the contact surface on the crankshaft has a fine groove worn in it. From the various locations, it looks like the leak is oil from somewhere forward of the TX. Besides, TX lube is heavy and very stinky compared to engine oil, so a simple finger and nose test will tell you if the TX is leaking. You did say that the rubber boots were torn, so that would accumulate TX oil.

I'd jack the car up on stands and pressure wash the engine and TX area, then watch carefully to find the true source of the oil. At least it's not a British car - they seemed to leak oil THROUGH the metal.....

As to your clunk: 3-2 shift is the biggest torque jump, so any problem will be most obvious there. You have to be very aware to tell if it's also happening on the 4-3 and 5-4 shifts. You almost never make a 2-1 downshift since the 1st gear is so low, but it'd likely be worse than the 3-2 shift.

An alternate possibility is that the 3-2 shift is toward the side of the body tunnel. It there is near-interference between the TX and the body, you could get the clunk you mention; in this case, there would be nothing on the other shifts.

You have to be very discerning to tell the difference.

As to 1st gear grunch: Get a good (used) dog gear - RJR, Spruel, APE, and some others can supply a 4 or 5 gear as a source. Larry at APE has done so many that I think he has a stock of separated dog teeth. Also get the few bits and segments needed (see the thread). Put them in a HD ziplock and store it for the next time the TX is apart. You have to completely disassemble the mains shaft to get to the 1st gear, so it's a major project, but you'll eventually get there (or your mechanic will).

If your mechanic is skeptical, point him to the thread cited! If he doesn't understand that and completely agree, fire him!

When I was 16, my dad bought me my first car. He spent $500 on a 4-year old Corvair, and another $500 on a substantial set of Craftsman tools. The later was the best gift he ever bought me! I've been fiddling with are ever since.

Good Luck

Robert
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post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-24-2012, 12:35 PM Thread Starter
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just another thing I have been wondering about:

when you rebuild the tranny, do you just leave the shift boots on - and that's why he missed the ripped boot?
I don't know, but I'd think the boots and the shifter come off?



I am kind of getting close to understand where I am at and what I want. Again - thx to all your help/comments.
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post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-24-2012, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantic View Post
Well, I only get the clunking when I downshift into second (from 3rd) - I do NOT get it at all when downshifting from 4th into 3rd. I think that rules out the drive shaft and points into the transmission.
Note that in higher speeds centrifugal force keeps drive saft in line, so down sifting 2-3 can make some vibrating and centre rubber mount(if poor shape) let drive shaft hit the body and make that clunking noise.
Just my thought, don't shot me if I am wrong

Giulia Super "Biscione" 28th February 1969
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post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-24-2012, 01:32 PM Thread Starter
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Alright,

I talked to Larry at APE and to Merrit Carden. Both were exceptionally nice and helpful. Both were of the definite opinion that a freshly rebuild tranny should NOT grind in first.

... I'll call the mechanic now and see what we'll do about all this.
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post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-24-2012, 01:44 PM Thread Starter
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... done.

He said, he would open the tranny again and if i am still not happy he would give me the money back and I can go somewhere else for the rebuild.

Very good attitude I'd say. I'll keep you all posted.

Dirk
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post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-24-2012, 01:52 PM
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...when you rebuild the tranny, do you just leave the shift boots on - and that's why he missed the ripped boot?
I don't know, but I'd think the boots and the shifter come off?
You can't get the TX out of the car without removing the shift lever; the bolt for that is under both the leather shift boot and both the rubber inner boots. Was the rubber boot torn before? It's possible it got torn during the R&R. [That's Remove & Reinstall in shop flat-rate speak].

Most of us have also chosen to work on the TX by pulling the entire engine-TX assembly. It makes it lots easier to align the TX input shaft with the clutch and flywheel pilot bushing. There are a few bolts at the bell housing that are a pain to get at to just pull the TX alone. BTW - it is common for these - at the top of the bell housing above the starter and on the EX side in a similar place - to not be put back in well. Not tightened, sometimes (horrors!) not put back at all. There are several discussions that recur about this.

Some Alfisti replace the upper bell housing bolts with somewhat larger ones threaded into the aluminum, or with helical inserts in the aluminum to use stock size (but shorter) bolts. The issue is that getting a wrench on the nut side of these is nearly impossible. These are the guys that think it's easier to R/R the TX with the engine in place.

I'm on the other side - pull the entire engine and TX - mostly because there are always a bunch of things I want to do to the engine side anyway. I just save them up for one bigger project. e.g.: I'm currently saving a set of Spruel motor mount protectors for the next engine pull, and I'll also put in the oil cooler thermostat and remote filter (already have an oil cooler installed several years ago). If I get a set of the new headers, those too will go in. And the TX is going to get new dog teeth, and a lightweight aluminum flywheel I've had for over a year will go in.

With the engine out I'll also replace the old steel brake lines with new copper alloy ones.

See - the list just grows........

Robert
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