syncro ring issue,,race cars - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-07-2011, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfar7 View Post
The entire point is there are no OE parts, and we are all buying the same stuff. What is different, and what I tried to point out is application, and assembly, to have parts that work together correctly!
Even the original OE syncros and sliders result in some balkiness when first assembled, but it resolves itself over time.
Perhaps rather than taking the approach that all the problem is "Parts" you should re-read my post and assemble toward end result, not just change parts.
Most of my transmissions and transaxles are run in on the big lathe and some are taken apart afterward when syncros were to tight and modified. Time consuming, but my customers don`t have transmission issues...
Gordon`s GTA box and the RJR close ratio are examples. Both werebuilt more than once to get them right.
Pic is of Andy Menapace`s close ratio 4 speed being tested...
Hi Richard,
Obviously doing all the build detailing and test running re-built trans before sending them out is the most thorough way of getting a good result.
SO; the simple answer to the original question of if anyone is having problems with the non-OE parts is YES!... So much so that they get bench run and then possibly pulled down again and re-modified then re-built again to fix the very problems we are seeing!
And in my experience this has never been the case with the OE ZF or Goetze parts when the proper re-build detail is done, so it still comes down to inferior parts that are now available. So, we may just have to live with them at vastly more time and expense, or perhaps come up with some joint plan to cover the cost of an OE production run of parts?
Cheers,
Vince.
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post #17 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-11-2011, 11:44 AM
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syncro rings

SYNCRO RING PROBLEMS

We were an Alfa shop before becoming a dealer. As Paul Spruell Alfa we sold some 5000 new and used Alfas. We had MANY gearbox warranty claims. New and rebuilt gear boxes were stiff and balky for a long period of time. The texture of the sintered material on the replacement syncro rings was extremely coarse. When gearlube was changed after the 500 mile interval the magnetic plug would have a long beard of ferrous filings from the syncros.

For years in the Alfa repair business, I had scavenged good used syncros in the shop and reused them in my race gearboxes with great success. So, why not do a few strokes with some 100 grit sand paper and smooth off the new syncros? Our service department gave it a try and it was snick-snick from the get go. By artificially breaking in new syncros the gearboxes lived happily ever after. Without the extreme coarseness syncro life was remarkably improved.

Spruell Motorsport currently sells several hundred reproduction syncro rings each year. With all syncro sales we furnish GB rebuild instructions that include our syncro modification procedure. There has been no negative feed back. We furnish free syncros with OS Giken gearsets and there has been ZERO syncro failures in some 30 sets. Then last week a customer’s new GB blew up really big time. A world renowned race parts vendor talked him into using genuine Alfa syncros with the little yellow stripe instead of our proven quality reproductions that came with the gearset. The builder also ignored the instructions we furnished. It was stiff as hell through the gears and after five laps the 4th syncro pealed off totaling the gearset and exploding the case. The twin plate race clutch probably contributed.

One would think that our syncro modification procedure would have made it around the globe by now. For decades our shop successfully used modified yellow striped syncros. From what we are hearing, the current “Alfa” manufacture may indeed be defective. These failures are likely due to some combination of surface texture, different ferrous coating and not enough strength/spring in the ring. With that said, this Alfa parts vendor recommends that you scrap your yellow stripers and order some of our reasonably priced reproductions…..and, of course follow instructions.
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post #18 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-17-2011, 09:56 AM
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I was at the SEMA show in Vegas a couple of weeks ago and visited the OS Giken booth. THey had a protype Alfa tranny with their gears on display that was made to use Nissan synchros due to the problems with the synchro's that are now being supplied.

Stu
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post #19 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-18-2011, 12:24 PM
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Absolutely great!!!! The OSG people told me that because the available standard syncros were in question, they were working on an upgrade, but I did not expect it to be announced so soon. These are really good people. They listen to their dealers and take product development very seriously.
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post #20 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-01-2011, 02:40 AM
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I would like to toss in a few things I have seen, I have built hundreds of gearboxes over the last 25 years by far 99% street cars. Tom is totally correct about the shape of current available syncro rings and sliders, I have bought rings from many suppliers hoping for something good and am not real happy with any. I use ones from a certain supplier that are the closest in shape. The 4 varieties I have recently purchased vary by shape, Moly color, texture, bevel cuts or Not, and interior steel finish/color from each other. I have come across new rings with a very soft steel ring that gets gouged up by the lock and appeared they were not even that old. Some new rings just drop into the carrier, don't need to be slightly compressed when installing the snap ring. Basically every "Good used/checked" transaxle and transmissions we sell, I go though to be sure it will work well, that includes a new second gear syncro at the minimum along with some good used original parts. I have examined alot of them.

Back in the day real NOS Alfa syncros had a yellow dot. The first series repros were the yellow band and were good, everything now is plain. I have heard every story of who made what and who doesn't anymore. Hard to tell whats true, all I know is that we are left with low cost supplier, nobody will notice quality. Oh for the days of little orange boxes with some brown paper surrounding a shiny new ring.

For race boxes I currently lean toward using original used syncros, but takes a lot of cores to support that.

I usually recommend Shell Spirax, but I used lightweight shockproof in my 3.0 V6 105 GT at the track and It worked great, but my box has NOS rings from my stash.

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post #21 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-12-2011, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Spruell View Post
SYNCRO RING PROBLEMS

We were an Alfa shop before becoming a dealer. As Paul Spruell Alfa we sold some 5000 new and used Alfas. We had MANY gearbox warranty claims. New and rebuilt gear boxes were stiff and balky for a long period of time. The texture of the sintered material on the replacement syncro rings was extremely coarse. When gearlube was changed after the 500 mile interval the magnetic plug would have a long beard of ferrous filings from the syncros.

For years in the Alfa repair business, I had scavenged good used syncros in the shop and reused them in my race gearboxes with great success. So, why not do a few strokes with some 100 grit sand paper and smooth off the new syncros? Our service department gave it a try and it was snick-snick from the get go. By artificially breaking in new syncros the gearboxes lived happily ever after. Without the extreme coarseness syncro life was remarkably improved.

Spruell Motorsport currently sells several hundred reproduction syncro rings each year. With all syncro sales we furnish GB rebuild instructions that include our syncro modification procedure. There has been no negative feed back. We furnish free syncros with OS Giken gearsets and there has been ZERO syncro failures in some 30 sets. Then last week a customer’s new GB blew up really big time. A world renowned race parts vendor talked him into using genuine Alfa syncros with the little yellow stripe instead of our proven quality reproductions that came with the gearset. The builder also ignored the instructions we furnished. It was stiff as hell through the gears and after five laps the 4th syncro pealed off totaling the gearset and exploding the case. The twin plate race clutch probably contributed.

One would think that our syncro modification procedure would have made it around the globe by now. For decades our shop successfully used modified yellow striped syncros. From what we are hearing, the current “Alfa” manufacture may indeed be defective. These failures are likely due to some combination of surface texture, different ferrous coating and not enough strength/spring in the ring. With that said, this Alfa parts vendor recommends that you scrap your yellow stripers and order some of our reasonably priced reproductions…..and, of course follow instructions.
I built a 1600 GB with Paul's synchro rings and OSG gearset. I also replaced the input shaft bearing and several other's as well as I consider them time change items regardless of how they look. Admittedly it's a street car "BUT" it does get driven as hard as I can drive it. I used Paul's Sychro ring prep instructions as well as his very detailed assembly instructions with photos (nice job Paul). Filled the box with 75-140 synthetic oil and ran it for about 1000 miles. Drained it to check the magnet on the plug. No metal shavings at all.. Wasn't completely happy with the shift "feel" (shift transitions) so I went back to 85-140 standard Lucas gear oil. Shift "feel" improved dramtically and engagement is seamless. I realize that gear oil is somewhat subjective other than hard data Richard and other's have put forth in this thread so I have to also attach the disclaimer that: "these are my personal observations and should be taken as such."

I would like to get some intial thoughts as to OSG's integration of Nissan synchro sub assemblies with alfa gear sets? I suspect OSG has a great deal of history with Nissan GB's and came to the conclusion after reading the alfa bb for an extended period of time that enough was enough.
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post #22 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-04-2012, 04:34 AM
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Has there been any progress with the Giken syncros ?
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post #23 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-04-2012, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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Hi DDSelwood

I think we have found the solution to the gearbox syncros failures.
David H 105 + Rob B 116 gearboxes are working well.
Billy M 105 gearbox will be rebuilt in next few weeks in time for our Eastern Creek sports car races in late May.
All were complaining about shift problems (mainly 3rd +4th gears) after 80% race pace after a few laps.
No problems on road cars,just race cars.
Lets see if my solution also works on Billy M race box,,but wont know till end of May.

Have tried all the solutions from our very reputable overseas venders parts and modifications,with no results.
I dont see that Giken box the way to go in our categories.

Robert

1972 105 GT Veloce 2000
1976 2L Spider
1984 GTV 6 3 litre
1967 GSGT 2 litre
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post #24 of 83 (permalink) Old 05-13-2012, 06:24 AM
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Great discussion! I want a good lathe and the knowledge to use it so bad I could spit.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

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the ones that got away:
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post #25 of 83 (permalink) Old 05-13-2012, 01:39 PM Thread Starter
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Hi gigem75

What is that supposed to mean ?
Must be an American saying.

Robert

1972 105 GT Veloce 2000
1976 2L Spider
1984 GTV 6 3 litre
1967 GSGT 2 litre
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post #26 of 83 (permalink) Old 05-13-2012, 06:12 PM
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Great discussion! I want a good lathe and the knowledge to use it so bad I could spit.

Robert,

Allow me to interpret: "This is very useful discussion! I wish I were in possession of a well maintained turning lathe such that, in the hands of a properly trained and experienced craftsman, quality product could be assured. Would that I was that person."

Texans have a colorful way of expressing themselves - I am fortunate to have a sister that has lived in Dallas for the past 40 years so I can usually understand them so long as they speak clearly and slowly. Not too sure about east Texans though...


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Last edited by gprocket; 05-13-2012 at 06:15 PM.
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post #27 of 83 (permalink) Old 05-13-2012, 06:50 PM Thread Starter
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All good gprocket.

Well,I have been rebuilding-reconditioning Alfa 105 series + alfetta gearboxes for near 30 years ,BUT ,I personally hate lathes.They scare me.
I guess someone needs to show me how to use a lathe 1000 times before I am confident to use one on my own.

Hopefully this weekend will be the test on the syncro issue,which supposedly is only in Australia,and not overseas.

gigem,,,please buy a lathe,,so you can teach me how to use it confidently and safely,,and between the 2 of us,,lets make gearsets and engine blocks + heads.

Gigem,,I understand now.

Thanks gprocket

Robert

1972 105 GT Veloce 2000
1976 2L Spider
1984 GTV 6 3 litre
1967 GSGT 2 litre
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post #28 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-06-2012, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giulia_veloce View Post
Hi guys

Here in Australia,many Alfa Romeo race car specialists are having gearbox selection issues with the new type syncros sold worldwide,from all the reputable Alfa resellers overseas.
I built another transmission this week and ordered some bearings from a trusted supplier. Although I still have some NOS aftermarket syncros on hand I thought I'd order some new production parts for inspection.

While one might be able to make synchros from the new parts, they're really bad. The profile and thickness is not consistent with the original design and they are not symmetrical. They are missing the machined bevel at their ends. While I was grateful for suggestions on how to make them work, these are not good parts.

This quality is not acceptable. The supplier[s] can do better.

I took a basic photo with my old camera, showing two of the current production parts with some old aftermarket yellow stripe ones. The yellow stripes, the yellow dots, and the old old plain ones are all consistent and good quality. The current production parts look much worse than the differences visible in my snapshot.

--Carter
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post #29 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-07-2012, 08:07 PM
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Bianchi, is a T5 -Alfa bell housing readily available or did you have to develop ourself?

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post #30 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-19-2012, 03:06 PM
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Trans issues / modifications to resolve shifting issues

I have been hoarding OEM syncros for a very long time. Attempting to burnish aftermarket junk to get them to work reliably isn`t anthing but a short life fix.

I have a dwindling supply of OEM moly syncros and their matching sliders,
and a good personal supply of the best of the syncros the early 750/101/102/106 Original striated syncro rings and center grooved sliders that I only use on race gearsets. (with Redline 75-90 NS only) I would think they would still be used if Alfa wasn`t after cheap fixes to production cost.

The syncro dog assemblies from donor boxes from 4th/5th/ (and sometimes 3rd gear) are the source for the needed swap out to eliminate the unidirectional 1st gear syncro assembly, and most always 2 gears`s assembly as the teeth are blunted.

To insure that the replacement Dog tooth assembly has a long and smooth life
there are some modification to these parts that improve function.

If the internal surfaces of the syncro ring and the two friction bands are bead blasted to eliminate the polished surfaces that will improve the "gription" between them to syncronization.

If you feel the tip of the "used" syncro teeth`s points you can feel a burr on the top of good ones, and worn ones will have a spike upwards that enhibits the slider from engaging quickly, and worse pulls out on the syncro on disengagement. (Syncro failure!)

If you look closely at the syncro dogs in the pic you will see I have polished a small taper on the upper points outer part to chamfer and ease the sliders engagement.

I debated sharing this but what the hay...

As well the long standing problem of drilled gears and lube foaming has been long discussed.

I lighten differently than others. while syncro parts are off I backcut both sides of the gears heavily & the taper of the cuts have resolved that foaming issue.

Hope this helps...
Rj
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Last edited by Alfar7; 09-20-2012 at 03:19 AM.
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