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post #1 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 05:08 PM Thread Starter
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oil pump

Interesting failure. The vendor that sold me this pump (one of two) recalled it because he said the hole that holds the cotter pin that holds the relief spring was to low which would cause excessive oil pressure. I got it back and installed it in a new motor. I should have known something was up when the oil pressure gauge stayed pegged even when the oil was hot but silly me I figured it was the sending unit. I installed it with the 3 bolt tightening method and I could not detect any binding. I was just about to change the break in oil as I was approaching 1000 miles. 20w50
Any thoughts?
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the ones that got away:
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post #2 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 05:39 PM
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Quite a few oil pumps from china have problems......

We need to know the name of the company selling these.

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post #3 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 05:53 PM
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As a builder of Oil pumps, I can't comment other than to say that high oil pressure did NOT cause that failure. There are 2 good 2L pumps currently being sold, BOTH built by one of Alfa's original pump builders. NEITHER are "cheap", and both are good. That said, much else of what is available is "none-too-good".
Don't take my word for it. Ask professional engine builders. (or ask Bill Gillham, Mike Besic and many others!)


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post #4 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 07:18 PM Thread Starter
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It appears he is no longer selling oil pumps so no need to identify any vendors in the SE US.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
2017 Giulia Q4
74 GTV restored daily driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
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post #5 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 06:01 AM
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What deteriorates on original pumps that requires them to be replaced by new ones?

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
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76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
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post #6 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfaparticle View Post
What deteriorates on original pumps that requires them to be replaced by new ones?
Gordon Raymond will have a better answer but like every other engine part, with wear the tolerances just get too big.
Gordon’s pumps are not cheap either but worth every penny.

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post #7 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 06:32 AM
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pumps

Factory pumps are pretty bullet proof, not so some of the aftermarket pumps.

Even with some wear on the aluminum bodies around the outside of the gears, they are going to pump adequate levels of pressure for the low volume required in an Alfa engine. Typically closing the amount of end play on the gears will improve efficiency. That is easily done by removing the studs from the bottom housing and removing a few thousandths from the surface.

Gigem75, where did you source that pump? At Atlanta for the "Mity" Malcom, the owner of Apex Racing, had a similar failure of a new pump sourced from Spruel, on Sharon`s Giulietta SZ that they maintain. This was a new engine and she only got in 2 laps...
But the wear pattern makes me wonder not just about the alloy (brass not Bronze) but if the drive gear on the crank was put on backwards.??

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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post #8 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 06:34 AM Thread Starter
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I'm just glad I had a Wix oil filter on. In all my years this is the first time I've pulled a pan with the motor in the car. First oil pump failure too. I can see slivers of bronze on the drive gear and on the sides of the front cover by the gear. My plan is to wash down with solvent from up top and get the remains out that way.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
2017 Giulia Q4
74 GTV restored daily driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
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post #9 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 06:47 AM Thread Starter
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The pump came from the same place as your friend's oil pump. The motor was fresh with less than a thousand miles on it. Ahhh shucks, now you're messing with me Richard. You did get me to check though I'll give you that.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
2017 Giulia Q4
74 GTV restored daily driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
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post #10 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 08:11 AM
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I did the same thing to an original pump in a 1600 motor. In my case, I think it was a result of improper installation. The pump went on after the front cover was attached. It was difficult to feel for binding. The most recent motor I assembled, I installed the pump on the front cover first.

Jim
San Antonio, TX
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post #11 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Raymond View Post
As a builder of Oil pumps, I can't comment other than to say that high oil pressure did NOT cause that failure.
This begs the question of what did cause the abnormally high oil pressure. I have seen situations where the check valve sticks on an old pump, causing the cold oil pressure to be too high. But still high when hot? Perhaps it was just a bad sender.

Quote:
the wear pattern makes me wonder not just about the alloy (brass not Bronze) but if the drive gear on the crank was put on backwards.??
In my limited experience, a gear installed backwards misses contacting the pump gear entirely. But maybe tolerances allow a backward drive gear to sometimes chew into the pump gear; still, in that circumstance, particularly with high oil pressure, I would expect the distributor timing to slip (e.g., the gears would skip teeth). I like the "cheap pump / bad alloy" theory.

Jay Mackro
San Juan Capistrano, CA

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post #12 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 09:22 AM
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And remember the original vendor recalled the pump because the relief valve retainer hole was in the wrong place! That certainly would cause the pressure to remain too high. Then tells the customer don't worry, I don't sell those anymore!
Who else here got one of these?
And our pump rebuilder expert knows who makes the good pumps and who makes/sells the bad ones and will not say.....
I can't imagine how this is good for the community.

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post #13 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Even with some wear on the aluminum bodies around the outside of the gears, they are going to pump adequate levels of pressure for the low volume required in an Alfa engine. Typically closing the amount of end play on the gears will improve efficiency. That is easily done by removing the studs from the bottom housing and removing a few thousandths from the surface.
I followed that advice from Richard when I rebuilt my motor 5 years ago and it has very good oil pressure. Jim K describes the same method in his book.

They don't make 'em like they used to

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
85 GTV6 3L
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

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post #14 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 09:41 AM Thread Starter
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I thought Richard was talking about the drive gear on the crank. Since it can't be installed backwards on the crank (it can but I doubt it would even start) he was either pulling my leg or he was talking about the drive gear on the oil pump being installed backwards or upside down really by the manufacturer. The installing on the front cover first is suspect to me. Would it get by the slinger? It's diameter is almost as big as the OD of the front seal. Either way the factory method is to tighten the three mounting bolts gradually in sequence all the while checking for binding which is the way I do it. My final check is to move the oil pump shaft with a large screwdriver back and forth using the lash between the crank gear and the gear on the oil pump. It's not much but enough to get a feel for any binding.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
2017 Giulia Q4
74 GTV restored daily driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider

Last edited by gigem75; 06-17-2019 at 10:15 AM.
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post #15 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Raymond View Post
As a builder of Oil pumps, I can't comment other than to say that high oil pressure did NOT cause that failure. There are 2 good 2L pumps currently being sold, BOTH built by one of Alfa's original pump builders. NEITHER are "cheap", and both are good. That said, much else of what is available is "none-too-good".
Don't take my word for it. Ask professional engine builders. (or ask Bill Gillham, Mike Besic and many others!)
Gordon, the community is lucky to have someone with your expertise. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with us.

It sounds like the bottom line is, if it's going in the engine, don't pinch pennies.
Gordon Raymond and NMMilano like this.

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