oil pump - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 13Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #16 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 10:56 AM
Moderator
Platinum SubscriberSuper Moderator
 
Gordon Raymond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Northfield, Illinois
Posts: 10,977
On some aftermarket pumps sent me, the relief valve upper body cylinder appears drilled with a wood auger! This DOES cause the piston to freeze in that cylinder as it might catch against a ridge or groove in the cylinder, causing high pressure.
As a rule with most Alfa parts that move or might cause whatever "system" failure, Brian's comment is 100% correct..."It sounds like the bottom line is, if it's going in the engine, don't pinch pennies."


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Gordon Raymond
Illinois SNO Alfa Chapter Director
Illinois SNO Ferrari Chapter Director
and sometimes, CONFUSED AND INCORRECT, but Larry helps me out.
Now:
Illinois Chapter Director AND Charter Member of THE CONFUSED AND INCORRECT

Last edited by Gordon Raymond; 06-17-2019 at 01:06 PM. Reason: Original **** word was a variation on tilt, beginning with letter c.
Gordon Raymond is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 12:28 PM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
alfaparticle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbia SC
Posts: 12,553
It is more than a case of pinching pennies. It is often a case of installing a part that was designed without the knowledge of the original design specs and/or manufactured by a company that does not have an adequate quality assurance program. Failure of such parts is not uncommon.
alfaloco likes this.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
85 GTV6 3L
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
alfaparticle is offline  
post #18 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 04:57 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
gigem75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: East Texas
Posts: 6,242
I checked the play in the pump shaft on the other motor with the same pump and I pulled that motor just in time. A LOT of lash. Fortunately I had built "the one" with Alfaholics forged pistons, balanced crank, etc, windage tray, 30 deg big intake valves, RJ cams, MSD Streetfire ignition, 123 Bluetooth, Kent valve springs, and ported head where I went easy on the exhaust porting that was ready to go. BTW if anyone gets the Alfaholics forged pistons you will need to narrow the small end down to 21.99 mm so the small end will fit into the piston. A little tidbit they don't tell you on the website. But it's all good now and I'm very satisfied with the parts. Oh and a new oil pump from Classic Alfa. I also used their "race" timing chains and got the best fit ever on the lower one.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
2017 Giulia Q4
74 GTV restored daily driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
gigem75 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #19 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 05:59 PM
Moderator
Platinum SubscriberModerator
 
Alfajay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Juan Capistrano
Posts: 9,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101/105guy View Post
And remember the original vendor recalled the pump because the relief valve retainer hole was in the wrong place! That certainly would cause the pressure to remain too high.
Oops, I had forgotten about that. OK, that explains the high oil pressure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gigem75
I thought Richard was talking about the drive gear on the crank. Since it can't be installed backwards on the crank (it can but I doubt it would even start)....
Right, that was my point about the gears not even touching if the one on the crankshaft is installed backward. Distributor won't turn, engine won't start, so no damage done.

Quote:
.... or he was talking about the drive gear on the oil pump being installed backwards or upside down really by the manufacturer.
Got it. The gear on the oil pump may have been upside-down.

Jay Mackro
San Juan Capistrano, CA

'63 Guilia spider
'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
'91 164L

Last edited by Alfajay; 06-17-2019 at 06:07 PM.
Alfajay is offline  
post #20 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 06:47 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
gigem75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: East Texas
Posts: 6,242
With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight I now know what the whirring sound is that I heard. At first I thought it was the spica belt cogs since it sounded like a fast bicycle with playing cards taped to the fender. I never could track it down and pretty much ignored it. Now I know it was the oil pump. I also compared the spring to a stock factory pump and it is about 7mm shorter and has fewer coils. It also feels stiffer but can't say how much. Bottom line is that if you hear something that sounds like cards on a bicycle and you just put a new oil pump in that was cheaper than average (under 200) stop!

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
2017 Giulia Q4
74 GTV restored daily driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
gigem75 is offline  
post #21 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 07:30 AM
Richard Jemison
Platinum Subscriber
 
Alfar7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pensacola, Fl. U.S.A.
Posts: 6,869
Pump gears

Quote:
I thought Richard was talking about the drive gear on the crank. Since it can't be installed backwards on the crank (it can but I doubt it would even start) he was either pulling my leg or he was talking about the drive gear on the oil pump being installed backwards or upside down really by the manufacturer.
I was not being facetious, your wear pattern would indicate either
mis- alignment of the gears, improper contact (small diameter of the oil pump gear) or softer alloy or material of the gear. As well the surface angle of gears must be the exact same so that there is a perfectly even contact pattern on both gears.

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"When you are dead you don`t know it.
Only those around you are distressed.
Same with stupid"
Alfar7 is offline  
post #22 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 07:50 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
gigem75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: East Texas
Posts: 6,242
No sweat. It would be hard to have either gear in backwards is what I was referring to.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
2017 Giulia Q4
74 GTV restored daily driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
gigem75 is offline  
post #23 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 10:11 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 4,020
Quote:
It is often a case of installing a part that was designed without the knowledge of the original design specs and/or manufactured by a company that does not have an adequate quality assurance program. Failure of such parts is not uncommon.
[/QUOTE]


This is why they're called "pattern parts" I suppose. The difference is one of apparent quality versus actual quality.

Jim . . . '72 Super 1300, '70, 1750GTV, 2nd series,
'62, Lancia Flaminia Zagato3c, 2nd series
180OUT is offline  
post #24 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 10:16 AM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
alfaparticle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbia SC
Posts: 12,553
We seem destined to take backward steps on our way forwards. Maybe that is why we feel so good when we finally get it right.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
85 GTV6 3L
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
alfaparticle is offline  
post #25 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 06:10 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: E. S.
Posts: 1,058
Gordon, source for the (good) pumps, or...you?

What caused such damage to the gear? I mean, I could not do that bad on a crownwheel without setting tools!

Regards, Alberto
aguirola is offline  
post #26 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 07:11 PM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
alfaparticle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbia SC
Posts: 12,553
If the crown wheel was made of brass and the pinion of hard steel?

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
85 GTV6 3L
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
alfaparticle is offline  
post #27 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 07:48 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: E. S.
Posts: 1,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfaparticle View Post
If the crown wheel was made of brass and the pinion of hard steel?
...and no bearings...

Regards, Alberto

PS. I would still like to know what happened in technical terms
aguirola is offline  
post #28 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 07:59 PM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
alfaparticle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbia SC
Posts: 12,553
We know of two that failed after a short time and both were installed by individuals who have built a few Alfa motors so things done by the manufacturer almost certainly caused the failure. Incorrect material of construction was a contributing factor. I wonder if these pumps were made on a special order from the vendor of the two failed ones or if they have a wider distribution.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
85 GTV6 3L
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
alfaparticle is offline  
post #29 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 07:53 AM
Moderator
Platinum SubscriberSuper Moderator
 
Gordon Raymond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Northfield, Illinois
Posts: 10,977
In this case, it is likely that excess outside axial clearance caused the failure. There are 2 axial clearances in these pumps, interrelated. Internally, gear top to upper body flange, and externally, upper body tower bush to bronze gear bottom. There is a build tolerance as mass production of ORIGINAL FACTORY pumps components varied a bit and that was designed into factory clearances. However, too much clearance here allows the bronze gear to move up-and-down against the hardened steel gear, resulting in the hourglass wear-THROUGH seen. I've had many other pumps with soft brass gears that show the beginnings of this wear pattern.
Ed. They have a wider distribution. Our vendors often do not know the quality of aftermarket parts unless failures are reported. They are NOT manufacturers, component testers or engineers. They are trying to fill a demand. This is complicated by good components, used in incorrect applications. A good 2L oil pump for a slower speed FI engine, used in a faster running 1600 with Webers, does not last long. This is an application mis-match, rather than "bad" pump.
All the above, my opinions from my own personal experiences.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Gordon Raymond
Illinois SNO Alfa Chapter Director
Illinois SNO Ferrari Chapter Director
and sometimes, CONFUSED AND INCORRECT, but Larry helps me out.
Now:
Illinois Chapter Director AND Charter Member of THE CONFUSED AND INCORRECT
Gordon Raymond is offline  
post #30 of 85 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 09:58 AM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
alfaparticle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbia SC
Posts: 12,553
Quote:
A good 2L oil pump for a slower speed FI engine, used in a faster running 1600 with Webers, does not last long. This is an application mis-match, rather than "bad" pump.
What is different in the design of 1600 and 2L pumps that enables one to run faster than the other?
Catalogo Rapido Ricambi shows the same pump 105.14.06.013.01 for all 1300, 1600, 1750 and 2000 engines.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
85 GTV6 3L
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
alfaparticle is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome