105 1750 GTV Head Removal - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 67 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 11:41 PM
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Re "Heat shield"...
If what you are referring to is the rust-coloured, tubular-ended piece shown in post #7, it receives one end of an air intake hose, the other end of which goes to the second air cleaner inlet hole in the nose of your tubular canister. At some time that hose has fallen or been taken off.
If you do in fact have that two-inlet canister, the second hole is for a 'winter' setting, drawing warmer air through that hose from down near the motor, opened/closed with a lever-operated flap.
Now, I always thought cold air = good, warm air = bad, with engines, but I guess there comes a point where too cold = more bad. I don't know how cold that is.
Does someone out there have an original owners manual with relevant info? Be interesting to see what it said.
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post #17 of 67 (permalink) Old 06-01-2019, 04:24 AM
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Cam timing is something you worry about when you put the head back on. Kinda of pointless at this stage.
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1969 1750 Spider Veloce w/dual webers, 1969 1750 Berlina, 1971 1750 Spider Veloce w/ dual webers, 1985 Spider Veloce 23,000 orig. miles, {Two} 1986 Spider Veloces, 1987 Spider Veloce bought new, 1988 Quadrifoglio, 1991 164S, Plus several more. I think they are breeding.
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post #18 of 67 (permalink) Old 06-01-2019, 07:01 AM Thread Starter
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What a treasure trove of information... thanks all for sharing the wisdom!

OK, was just thinking about my next move... I guess I'll focus on the head removal phase before getting too far ahead of myself!

Wanted to confirm... the notes I've made from my reading make a point of note rotating the crankshaft... this is just in relation to the head being off and preventing any cylinder sleeve movement, yeah??

Thanks again. Appreciate the input.
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post #19 of 67 (permalink) Old 06-01-2019, 07:42 AM
Jim's right but since I'm on vacation I've got nothing but time.

More than likely when you removed the timing chain you first loosened the idler gear and then tapped the chain to introduce some slack. The intake cam rotates away from the timing mark on the cam. Make note of the position (actually you did since you took a picture).

There are a couple of ways to time the cams. The correct way is to remove the nut and bolt from the veneer wheels (The series of holes around the cam sprocket). Then loosen the 22mm nut at the front of the cam which then allows the cam to rotate independent of the sprocket. With the crank already set at TDC, tighten the chain and idler gear and then move the cams to line up with the marks on the cam caps. Once there, tighten the 22mm nut (don't forget to bend the lock tab). Now, the trick is to find the holes in the veneer wheels that line up so that the bolt you removed will fit. This will likely require you to rotate the motor. Reinstall the small bolts (don't forget cotter pins or safety wire for the castle nuts) and rotate the motor thru a couple revs and verify that the cam marks and crank marks are all in agreement. Remember, this is an interference motor which means that if you've got something really off the pistons can hit the valves. Don't force the crank when rotating...

The other way (assuming the cams were in good timing to start) is to not touch the veneers. Install the exhaust cam with the mark a little to the outside of the cam mark. lay the timing chain on the sprocket and then rotate the cam until the chain tightens. If you got it right, it will fall into alignment. If not, rotate back move the cam back one tooth on the chain and repeat. Make sure you don't pull too hard and disturb the TDC position. Once the exhaust cam is aligned, move on to the intake side.

With the idler gear compressed all the way in, adjust the intake cam so the alignment mark is to the inside of the cam cap (look at your picture above to get a clue as to how far in). Now lay the chain across the sprocket and with luck you have enough slack to attach the two ends of the chain with the master link. Don't bother to install the link fish yet as more than likely you'll need to do this a couple of times.

Release the idler gear and pull the chain snug (never over tighten a chain, it needs a little slack to operate properly). Tighten the Idler gear, The intake cam should rotate back into alignment. That's the goal anyway. If not, loosen the idler gear again, remove the master link and adjust the intake cam and try again.

Although the second method sounds more fiddly I find it easier and quicker then the proper method - SO LONG AS THE CAMS WERE ORIGINALLY IN GOOD ALIGNMENT. If the chain was replaced, head shaved, and/or different thickness head gasket it will be different and you must use the veneer approach.

My biggest issue with the veneer approach is the opportunity to drop something down into the bowels of the motor. This may be my own private hell but I try to avoid it.

BTW, when it comes time to set the valve to tappet clearance (lash), it's way easier to do with the head on a bench...
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Last edited by gprocket; 06-01-2019 at 12:17 PM.
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post #20 of 67 (permalink) Old 06-01-2019, 08:37 AM
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A quick tip on cam timing the first way Rich wrote.

If you know cam timing is going to change. When you undo the small veneer bolt. Remove it and put it in from the backside. When you go to rotate the cams you can easily remove the bolt rotate the cam and then find the new hole it needs to go in. You can then tighten the big nut. Then rotate the engine around until the veneer bolt is up top. Take it out and put it in from the front.

By doing it this way you don't take the chance of loosing your cam timing when you have to rotate the engine.

Also stuff lots of rags underneath the cam sprocket before removing the bolt. Makes it easier to find when you drop it.
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post #21 of 67 (permalink) Old 06-03-2019, 04:53 AM Thread Starter
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Gents,

I know I'm getting ahead of myself given I haven't even got the head off yet... but I'm waiting for a "head removal tool" to arrive so it's giving me time to think ahead.. possibly to the area I'm "nervous" about... so thanks for the input above, really helpful for when the time comes.

Now I have been doing some of my own reading to try and be somewhat informed!! However I'm still confused as to "Do not turn the crankshaft when the timing chain is disconnected" (I'm reading the workshop manual atm).

I appreciate the lower timing marks are not visible, however I'm not removing that chain. I figured I could rotate the crankshaft as much as I like, on the proviso that when it comes to reinstalling the camshafts I put the crankshaft back to where it needs to be.

Isn't the head removal with the cylinder rope technique challenging this already?

I understand that when the head is off, then sure, the crankshaft rotation could be a bad idea for the sleeves... but aside from that, am I missing something? Sorry if it's obvious, not quite seeing it. Assuming the lower sprockets are correctly positioned, as long as we're back to TDC for camshaft alignment I figured we'd be good to go?

I am also reading Braden's books on the subject too!!
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post #22 of 67 (permalink) Old 06-03-2019, 12:48 PM
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The only reason I can think of to not turn the crank with the chain disconnected is the chain can get jammed up around the timing gear sprocket in the timing cover.

There are no timing marks on the chain gear in the timing cover and also none on the sprocket on the crank. The only timing marks are the ones on the crank pulley and the pointer right above the pulley.

As long as the crank is set on number 1 top dead center when you go to put the chain on the cam your good.

You defiantly do not want to turn the crank unless you have the hold down tools on the liners. You can use sockets, big washers, pipe etc to make them.

1969 1750 Spider Veloce w/dual webers, 1969 1750 Berlina, 1971 1750 Spider Veloce w/ dual webers, 1985 Spider Veloce 23,000 orig. miles, {Two} 1986 Spider Veloces, 1987 Spider Veloce bought new, 1988 Quadrifoglio, 1991 164S, Plus several more. I think they are breeding.
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post #23 of 67 (permalink) Old 06-04-2019, 12:56 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for that Jim, appreciate the confirmation. Will get cracking this coming weekend!
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post #24 of 67 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 04:42 AM Thread Starter
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Yet again, I thought my head would be the exception. I was wrong. That was not easy! Much easier in my imagination!! Ended up taking about 4 hours to get the head removed. It was tight!! The head removal tool proved invaluable. It was definitely needed even after the initial head/block formed a gap. Had to do all sorts of things with little sockets sitting on the studs to keep using the tool to keep raising the head. Wow. The rear studs were the worst. Certainly an issue when the penetrating oil was pooling at the top!!

After much frustration we ended up knocking the head back down so we could just work the up/down on the studs for a while. Once we saw the penetration oil running down the rear studs we figured we were making progress!! Seemed to be the key variable for us. Slow going, but we got there eventually.

According to my records, the head was last off 20 years ago. Anyway, with the head removed it was obvious where my issue was... clear deterioration in a section of the gasket.

Time to get on with the cleaning... well, maybe tomorrow's job!
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post #25 of 67 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 04:59 AM Thread Starter
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Another action shot!

We knocked it backed down from here as we weren't making progress. But as mentioned, with a bit of up/down jingle jangle we got there....

Will be better prepared for next time!!
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post #26 of 67 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 05:26 AM
Good work!

Assuming you are removing the liners, take a close look at the head studs at the bottom of the block. If they are badly corroded (I've found them less than half their original diameter) you may need to replace them. This is not an easy, DIY process. The studs will break off and the ends need to be EDM'd out of the block. Not many shops can or are willing to tackle that work. I have a guy locally that does mine and I've used a guy near Chicago that I'd trust. It's about a $500 job.

Hopefully you're ok but if you had that much corrosion at the head you certainly don't want to assume.

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post #27 of 67 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 06:06 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Rich.. appreciate the words of wisdom! I hadn't planned on removing the liners or any other block work to be honest! I thought I was now at the half way point, on the way back to putting things back together!!!

However certainly respect the advice of those who have more experience than me, so will look into it.

Thanks again for all the input as I journey along here, much appreciated. Certainly been fun and educational!!
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post #28 of 67 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 09:26 PM Thread Starter
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As suggested, also removed the starter motor... what's the preferred option here? Try and refurbish the existing unit? Or it's just simpler to install a new one? Any better than others? I did see a couple of interesting threads on this subject about noisy new starter motors...
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post #29 of 67 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 02:19 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranz View Post
Re "Heat shield"...
If what you are referring to is the rust-coloured, tubular-ended piece shown in post #7, it receives one end of an air intake hose, the other end of which goes to the second air cleaner inlet hole in the nose of your tubular canister. At some time that hose has fallen or been taken off.
If you do in fact have that two-inlet canister, the second hole is for a 'winter' setting, drawing warmer air through that hose from down near the motor, opened/closed with a lever-operated flap.
Now, I always thought cold air = good, warm air = bad, with engines, but I guess there comes a point where too cold = more bad. I don't know how cold that is.
Does someone out there have an original owners manual with relevant info? Be interesting to see what it said.
My internet research didn't reveal too much about this warm air intake unfortunately, although very interesting! Anyway, I tried to remove it however it seemed a little too tightly intertwined with the engine mount. A more unconventional approach managed to remove most of the shield...

Helpful for my current cleaning project!
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post #30 of 67 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 03:53 AM Thread Starter
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WIP, but satisfying to start clearing away years of grime.... turns out my car didn't come with a black engine block!
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