Alfa Spider 86 will not start. Please help! - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 11:22 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 37
Just reconnected AVV device and ground connectors went back to the original location (I don't
thing it should matter anyway), and was moving the drive relay and the pump finally stop, so maybe the relay is getting sticky or something related and it was just my luck it started working on its own or not, I just can't be sure at this point.
I swapped the horn relay for the small relay near the ECU and drive relay and nothing happened. Actually connected relay or not connected relay it does the same, starts up and dies after a few seconds, so I don't really know what this small relay is for.
After cleaning the AVV valve and waiting longer to get it out of the freezer it open half way, never fully open, but then again I did the test with the valve disconnected and using a plastic coupler instead, but maybe this test should've been done with the AVV connected to the system? Nope. I tried just that a few minutes ago and makes no difference. I also tried the valve closed (it never really closes because there is that 'pie cut") half open and wide open and no changes.
I'm going to borrow the injector Noid tester kit to see if injectors get power.

Last edited by ieshouston; 03-04-2019 at 01:43 PM.
ieshouston is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 11:52 AM
Registered User
 
spiderserie4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cologne, Germany
Posts: 7,209
it was the late, great, Jim 'Papajam' who discovered the connection between AAV grounds and pumps running regardless what was turned on/off!

the small "MAIN" relay and the big Bosch DRIVE/FUEL relay are kinda important
Here is a schematic from one of Eric's posts showing the inter-connection:
Attached Images
 

Dom - Alfa Spider 1990 S4 - formerly: Alfa 101 Sprint, 2600 Sprint, Montreal - family classics: Jensen Interceptor II, '58 Hooper RR Silver Cloud I, Shadow II, '60 Corvette.
spiderserie4 is online now  
post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 12:18 PM
BB Janitor
Platinum SubscriberAdministratorSuper Moderator
 
ghnl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Mebane, NC
Posts: 16,275
Garage
I forget if this was asked & answered. Is the drive relay a Bosch unit? There is a KAE brand that 'fits' (same size, same terminals) but it does not operate the same way the Bosch drive relay operates. As you might expect, the Bosch version is not inexpensive but it seems it is a vital component.

- - Eric
don't read this
~ 1984 Spider Veloce ~
- -~ 1981 GTV-6 ~
Mebane, North Carolina


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ghnl is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 12:43 PM
Registered User
 
spiderserie4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cologne, Germany
Posts: 7,209
Eric,
he says he has the correct original large Bosch drive relay.

Dom - Alfa Spider 1990 S4 - formerly: Alfa 101 Sprint, 2600 Sprint, Montreal - family classics: Jensen Interceptor II, '58 Hooper RR Silver Cloud I, Shadow II, '60 Corvette.
spiderserie4 is online now  
post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 01:17 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 37
I just tested injector connectors with the Noid lite tester and all injector connectors power on so they work. I got a bright light that dims out as the car dies. As I explained before injectors were serviced and car ran before the head job, even when the head gasket was all corroded and oil and water were mixed. Actually the report I got from the injectors shows almost no difference betwen before and after, but they were up to par and the car ran (I replaced O rings and fuel hoses).
Yes the big relay or drive relay is the original Bosch one, but I was tempted to buy an aftermarket of Ebay since 100 bucks are no joke, but then saw that this Kaehler from Germany (same as KAE I assume) and it is also 100 bucks, but now I'm kind of running out of options so I might get one, but the original one. Of course it makes no sense to buy a part just to see if that solves the problem, but if push come to shove I'll get the Bosch one instead.
I did not now about Papajam, but we was a well of knowledge and helped me out a lot when dealing with a 78 SPICA spider I used to own.
So there is a relationship between those ground terminals when disconnected from engine and the pump running. Good to know, I was puzzled.
I just don't know what other test could I run on the car. Even when pump is on it will start and die after a few seconds, but vaccum hoses were checked and all that is left is to remove the injector rail and see if the injectors open and spray or try with another drive relay maybe? I'm going to check again fuel pressure, but it was about 30 PSI and fuel pumps and filters are new and tank it's more than half way full.
Say, what gives the signal to the injectors to open? Is it the drive relay or the computer?

Thanks.

Last edited by ieshouston; 03-04-2019 at 04:12 PM.
ieshouston is offline  
post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 01:38 PM
Registered User
 
spiderserie4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cologne, Germany
Posts: 7,209
actually the 'Main' relay pin # 87 provides + power to injectors and the 'Fuel' ecu interrupts the circuit to open them (ecu pin#15 > injector 1; pin # 33 > injector 2; pin #32 > injector 3; pin # 14 > injector 4)

some interesting stuff here, reminds me of your problem too!
(also interesting re. noid light tests not being conclusive)
https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/spi...tor-pulse.html

the problem in that thread proved to be a ground

check those ecu grounds on the head even if they look good, remove, clean replace!

Dom - Alfa Spider 1990 S4 - formerly: Alfa 101 Sprint, 2600 Sprint, Montreal - family classics: Jensen Interceptor II, '58 Hooper RR Silver Cloud I, Shadow II, '60 Corvette.
spiderserie4 is online now  
post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 04:34 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 37
I checked the bulleting board thread that talks about the similar problem, ground connections were cleaned before, when the car was not running, and at that time there was a no spark issue, but before fixing the head the ground connectors were cleaned and that is how the car was made to run. Anyway I cleaned them againg and checked for continuity and they are fine. I also connected the ground strap that goes from the intake manifold to the plenum cause it was disconnected, but again that was before. I just tried with a new ignition coil and same as before it just runs and dies on me after a few seconds.
I just need to track the tachymetric line from the coil to the drive relay and the ECU and see once for all if the drive relay is at fault or the computer.
I checked injector connectors and they get energy only when the car starts, but when it dies voltage drops to zero so a think either the tachy signal or the relay or the computer are at fault. I checked ground to relay and it is fine. I will check connections again.

Thanks.
ieshouston is offline  
post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 01:56 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 37
According to the electric diagram you guys provided I will have to check the pulse from the tachymetric signal from the coil and it is supossed to arrive on drive relay to 31 b and then come out to 31 (provided relay is good) and then come out out of 87 on small relay that will send signal to injectors?
I already checked fuse box, coil, coil connectors, ground connections on head and valve cover so after this test I'll perfom it is only the relay or the computer (I think).
I was considering buying the German Kaehler or KAE, but I found instead the Made in Spain Bosch relay and I wanted to ask you about this Spanish one.
From the wires on coil that come out of 1 which one is the one that send the tachy signal the thin yellow one or the white one with braided core (one digram I find googling shows is the white and black one)? It seems it is not the bright yellow one but thick braided one isn't it?
Lastly, I am assuming there is no way the car would start without the fuel management ECU is there?
I almost forgot. I wanted to ask if some may habe the wiring diagram fro the 1986 Spider. That will take care of the guess work.

Thanks for all the help.

Last edited by ieshouston; 03-06-2019 at 02:47 PM.
ieshouston is offline  
post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 02:17 PM
Registered User
 
spiderserie4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cologne, Germany
Posts: 7,209
Quote:
Originally Posted by ieshouston View Post
I was considering buying the German Kaehler or KAE, but I found instead the Made in Spain Bosch relay and I wanted to ask you about this Spanish one.
absolutely fine, Bosch make a lot of parts in Spain these days. Better choice here than the KAE, providing you are talking about the Bosch 0280230001

Quote:
Originally Posted by ieshouston View Post
From the wires on coil that come out of 15 which one is the one that send the tachy signal the thin yellow one or the white one with braided core? It seems it is not the birght yellow one but thick braided one isn't it?
I am guessing this is a typo, but just to be clear, you hopefully mean coil terminal #1 (the negative side of coil)?

edit: ah, OK I see you have corrected this

it is the white/black stripe wire from coil #1 to fuel relay 31b.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ieshouston View Post
Lastly, I am assuming there is no way the car would start without the fuel management ECU is there?
Thanks for all the help.
correct.

Dom - Alfa Spider 1990 S4 - formerly: Alfa 101 Sprint, 2600 Sprint, Montreal - family classics: Jensen Interceptor II, '58 Hooper RR Silver Cloud I, Shadow II, '60 Corvette.
spiderserie4 is online now  
post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 37
Unhappy

Yes the relay from Spain has the same number 0 280 230 001 and same connector numbers.
Oh boy. I guess I got the wrong partial diagram since this relay I have has leads 1, 15, 30, 31, 50, 87 and 87b, but not 31 b, so which one is the one that receives the tachy signal?
Ok here is the thing: I cleaned all ground connections and the ones connected to the coil. I tried to start the car without the computer connected and it starts (wow) but still the same problem the car dies after a few seconds. An also after connecting and disconnecting the relay with ignition switch off again pump started to work on is own, so I disconnected both relays and only when disconnect the Drive one or black one, then the pump stops, so I feel more inclined to buy this relay or worse maybe a computer?

Thanks.

Last edited by ieshouston; 03-06-2019 at 05:25 PM.
ieshouston is offline  
post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 04:12 PM
BB Janitor
Platinum SubscriberAdministratorSuper Moderator
 
ghnl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Mebane, NC
Posts: 16,275
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by ieshouston View Post
I tried to start the car without the computer connected and it start (wow) but still the same problem the car dies after a few seconds.
The Cold Start System is stand alone - it is not computer controlled. Thus, the engine may be starting for a few moments from fuel injected by the Cold Start Injector.

- - Eric
don't read this
~ 1984 Spider Veloce ~
- -~ 1981 GTV-6 ~
Mebane, North Carolina


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ghnl is online now  
post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 37
Well I guess, and for the lack of wiring diagram, all is left is to buy the relay since this is the 4th time makes the pump running without the switch on and cross my fingers the computer is good.

To be continued...
ieshouston is offline  
post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 11:47 PM
Registered User
 
quadrifolio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: South-Spain
Posts: 849
here is copy of a 89 spider version,should be the same one, hoop it helps
Attached Images
File Type: pdf 89 spider motronic.pdf (489.2 KB, 17 views)
quadrifolio is offline  
post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 12:57 AM
Registered User
 
spiderserie4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cologne, Germany
Posts: 7,209
that 89 pdf diagram posted above, is for a motronic bosch spider, not L-jet.

ieshouston,
you said "I checked injector connectors and they get energy only when the car starts"

they should get 12V to both pins, KOEO/key on engine off!
when cranking the ecu pulses them, by interrupting the ground.

I can send you a coloured diagram of an 88 spider, which will be mostly similar to your 86 spider.
send me a PM with your email.

Dom - Alfa Spider 1990 S4 - formerly: Alfa 101 Sprint, 2600 Sprint, Montreal - family classics: Jensen Interceptor II, '58 Hooper RR Silver Cloud I, Shadow II, '60 Corvette.

Last edited by spiderserie4; 03-07-2019 at 01:03 AM.
spiderserie4 is online now  
post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 03:51 PM
Registered User
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Hershey Pa
Posts: 7
Had a very similar situation for over a year. Finally tried starting the car in the dark and saw my coil tower was arcing to the negative terminal on the coil. I replaced the coil and now it starts every time and stays running, Good luck.
Fish527 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale: 200+ shop manuals and owner manuals sale 81gtv6 Alfa Romeo Collectibles, Literature & Manuals For Sale & Wanted 12 12-26-2018 12:07 PM
Alfa Romeo's return to USA Ciavran Alfa Romeo Topics Not Covered Elsewhere 1205 05-25-2016 05:33 PM
Alfa 4C in Canada? 4Canada Alfa Romeo 4C 23 07-04-2014 12:28 PM
For Sale: 1988 Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce kingslandauto Alfa Romeo Cars For Sale & Wanted 2 07-23-2011 08:15 AM
Alfa Romeo 8C 2300 2.6 liter Monza Spider Corsa AlfaRonny Alfa Romeo History 3 02-12-2008 11:27 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome